Patch tearing

[Siringo]

i have a new Rice barrel in 54 caliber. While working up the best load, I sometimes get patches that are torn in half. Also patches that have a chunk out of the outer edge. I’m using prelubed oxyoke .020 with a .530 ball and 90 grains of old eynsford 2f. Also use 100 grains of regular goex ffg. The patch damage is not constant. Either one of these charges will shoot into less than 11/2” at 50 yards (benched). I swab between shots too. Also I coned the barrel. It almost seems as if the ball is tearing the patch when being loaded or seated.

Looking for some help here. Thanks.

 

[Coot]

That is a pretty tight combo. Have you tried .015 patches? Also some posters have mentioned that they have experienced some form of deterioration with old prelubed commercial patches. Are you using new patches vs new old stock?

 

[bang]

How much pressure does it take to start the PRB?
If it takes more than one moderate palm strike then it's too tight.
When you run a snug dry patch does it leave fuzz?
Being a new barrel maybe it needs shooting in.
Only time I had torn patches it was roughness in the bore. Should be near or at minimal to nonexistent in a new barrel.
Did the crown coning leave a sharp edge? Might need to gently break the shape edge.

 

[Mark Herman]

Sounds more like you got a hold of some old stock patches. Pre lubes have been known to dry out and deteriorate.

 

[Siringo]

That is a pretty tight combo. Have you tried .015 patches? Also some posters have mentioned that they have experienced some form of deterioration with old prelubed commercial patches. Are you using new patches vs new old stock?

I’m using new patches. Lube is not dried out.

 

[Siringo]

How much pressure does it take to start the PRB?
If it takes more than one moderate palm strike then it's too tight.
When you run a snug dry patch does it leave fuzz?
Being a new barrel maybe it needs shooting in.
Only time I had torn patches it was roughness in the bore. Should be near or at minimal to nonexistent in a new barrel.
Did the crown coning leave a sharp edge? Might need to gently break the shape edge.

The combo pushes down with moderate pressure. A firm push. I have another 54 but a colarain barrel. Same combo does not cause this. Accuracy between the two barrels is very similar.

I have a couple of things loaded without powder, by mistake. The patches look fine when that are pulled.

 

[Siringo]

That is a pretty tight combo. Have you tried .015 patches? Also some posters have mentioned that they have experienced some form of deterioration with old prelubed commercial patches. Are you using new patches vs new old stock?

0.015 patches are blown to bits. Even 0.018 ticking comes apart. Only 0.020 seemed to hold together more, but with the occasional tear. I realize this is a heavy charge, but lighter charges did not shoot well.

 

[Siringo]

I’ve head of some folks using scotch bright pads to polish the bore. I am reluctant to do that.

 

[mooman76]

Try JB bore paste. It is mild but can polish the bore some. It helped my 36 the was totally destroying patches. You might also try a stronger patch material like Pocket Drill, also called Drill Cloth.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Before doing anything with the bore, as a Rice barrel should not require breaking in ever, please get new (different) patches to try and see if anything changes. I understand that you just bought these patches and you perceive them as new, however you’ve no idea as to how long they sat between packaging and sale. Store bought prelube patches have been known to fail.
Your call, but long before I messed with a new Rice barrel I would be trying different patch material, thickness and lube!
Walk

 

[Grenadier1758]

The combo pushes down with moderate pressure. A firm push. I have another 54 but a colarain barrel. Same combo does not cause this. Accuracy between the two barrels is very similar.

I have a couple of things loaded without powder, by mistake. The patches look fine when that are pulled.

The barrel that is shredding patches is a Rice barrel (most likely with square grooves). Your other barrel that is not shredding patches is a Colerain barrel (most likely with deep radiused grooves).

Time to measure the land to land diameters of these two barrels. There may be a slight difference of a few thousandths with the Rice being tighter and a new barrel with the lands cutting the patches on firing. The balls that were pulled, were they from the Rice barrel? Any little cuts on the lands? If the Rice barrel has a smaller land to land diameter, then try a smaller ball with a slightly thicker patch.

If the crown is too sharp, you will find totally shredded patches or patches with the center gone. Shredded patches will occur with old pre-lubed patches. Make sure you have a nicely radiused crown. You want that transition from the lands to the muzzle to be smooth so that there is no cutting when you load the rifle.

Do you have pictures of your shredded patches?

 

[EC121]

If it is round-bottomed, a Rice barrel has .016" grooves. If you aren't filling the grooves with patching, they will blow. How tough is the weave of the patches? The patch has to be thick enough to fill the grooves and tough enough to with stand the friction between the ball and land. I have had my best luck with Rice barrels using a .526 ball and .023" awning canvas patch. If the patch is tearing in half, it almost sounds like the material is weak for some reason.
Colerains have a little shallower groove, and mine work OK with a .020" patch and .526 ball.
Both brands will load with a quick hit on the starter. No mallet required. I quit shooting matches and just hunt and play on my range.

 

[bang]

I’ve head of some folks using scotch bright pads to polish the bore. I am reluctant to do that.

I would use steel wool. Tough enough to remove lite burrs from machining but not dull lands. Plus scotchbrite will remove any finish if present. Shooting it will remove burrs in time.
Might try more patch lube. Could be the heat is causing the tearing. I add a mix of wax and veg oil melted together to a nice sticky consistency when set.
The thicker patch holds up better with the heavier loads, IMO. Plus fills the grooves better insuring good gas seal. More important with the deeper grooves but can't hurt. I use ball that will accomodate an .020 except my 50 SB is .015.

 

[M. De Land]

Usually the barrels just need to be shot a bit to clear off the sharp edges of the lands. I don't ever recommend the steel wool down bore treatment but rather just not getting to excited until a 100 rounds or so have been shot with good quality patch material. The best patch material I have ever found is my worn out work shirts from Costco which are heavy, close weave cotton flannel.
If a bore gives trouble after that then I get out my lap rods and give it a lead lap job which any barrel can be improved by if done correctly. Hand lapping with abrasive coated lead slugs, maintains bore profile, smooths machining marks and levels land and groove. It can even be used to choke or taper a bore a few ten thousands.

 

[Siringo]

Before doing anything with the bore, as a Rice barrel should not require breaking in ever, please get new (different) patches to try and see if anything changes. I understand that you just bought these patches and you perceive them as new, however you’ve no idea as to how long they sat between packaging and sale. Store bought prelube patches have been known to fail.
Your call, but long before I messed with a new Rice barrel I would be trying different patch material, thickness and lube!
Walk

Thank for the advice. I purchased unlubed patches and will grease them myself. I have used patches with the Bumblin Bear Grease in a 45 caliber rice barrel with excellent results. So, I will give new patches a try.

 

[Siringo]

The barrel that is shredding patches is a Rice barrel (most likely with square grooves). Your other barrel that is not shredding patches is a Colerain barrel (most likely with deep radiused grooves).

Time to measure the land to land diameters of these two barrels. There may be a slight difference of a few thousandths with the Rice being tighter and a new barrel with the lands cutting the patches on firing. The balls that were pulled, were they from the Rice barrel? Any little cuts on the lands? If the Rice barrel has a smaller land to land diameter, then try a smaller ball with a slightly thicker patch.

If the crown is too sharp, you will find totally shredded patches or patches with the center gone. Shredded patches will occur with old pre-lubed patches. Make sure you have a nicely radiused crown. You want that transition from the lands to the muzzle to be smooth so that there is no cutting when you load the rifle.

Do you have pictures of your shredded patches?

A .535 ball rolls down the Rice easily, but the Colarine is a little tighter. As a rule I use .530.

 

[Siringo]

The barrel that is shredding patches is a Rice barrel (most likely with square grooves). Your other barrel that is not shredding patches is a Colerain barrel (most likely with deep radiused grooves).

Time to measure the land to land diameters of these two barrels. There may be a slight difference of a few thousandths with the Rice being tighter and a new barrel with the lands cutting the patches on firing. The balls that were pulled, were they from the Rice barrel? Any little cuts on the lands? If the Rice barrel has a smaller land to land diameter, then try a smaller ball with a slightly thicker patch.

If the crown is too sharp, you will find totally shredded patches or patches with the center gone. Shredded patches will occur with old pre-lubed patches. Make sure you have a nicely radiused crown. You want that transition from the lands to the muzzle to be smooth so that there is no cutting when you load the rifle.

Do you have pictures of your shredded patches?

No pictures of patches. Imagine taking a shot patch and tearing in half. I didn’t notice any little cuts on the patches. There was not something obvious.

I did have one patch that had a small tear 1/10 inch right in the middle under the ball. I’m beginning to think the material has deteriorated from the bore butter and maybe the lube isn’t lubing so well - with increased friction of a tight load is causing the ball to push through the patch. Tear upon loading.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Try the 0.530 ball in the Rice barreled gun.

I think you are correct about the deteriorated patches.

 

[Siringo]

Try the 0.530 ball in the Rice barreled gun.

I think you are correct about the deteriorated patches.

This never occurred to me before.

 

[Siringo]

Try the 0.530 ball in the Rice barreled gun.

I think you are correct about the deteriorated patches.

So the question now is - does bore butter/1000 lube break down cotton fibers? Hummmm