patch question for Dutch

[George]

Reading through an old thread, a question occurred to me. In the thread, Dutch said:

I was surprised how very very small differences in shooting patch compressed thicknesses could so dramatically affect the accuracy of a ML rifle.

Dutch, does your method require a patch of at least a certain compressed thickness, no smaller, or is it exactly one certain compressed thickness, no more, no less?

In other words, what happens if you figure out the perfect compressed thickness of a patch, but then use one which is thicker?

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

And how is the compression force measured?

If I tighten my empty Starett 230 micrometer it warps the bow and reads negative values. It has the click-clutch to prevent that.

 

[Dr5x]

If you hold the barrel tightly in your fist and grip as hard as possible you just might wreck the micrometer.
I have long suggested holding the barrel between thumb and forefinger and twist. . That's a rather a weak grip and should be adequate to remove the extra thickness caused by the weave of the material.
Micrometers are to measure hard things like steel plate, piston rings and the wee clicker hets you very accurate measurements. We are measuring soft woven material and we want to know how thick the material will be when crushed between the lead ball and the barrel wall.

The fabrics sold for shooting patch use are sold with measurements using a micrometer as though it were measuring steel. That measurement while accurate is meaningless for our purposes.

I have gound .018 material, as sold, to compress more than .015 fabrics. It depends on the tightness or looseness of the weave.

If this is still not clear, think of your mattress which is a certain thickness, but when you plunk yourself on it it compresses to a smaller thickness.


If I were selling material for shooting patches I would sell them at their compressed thickness.

I once bought some precut patches that were exactly as advertised but I found that they were from three different fabrics that when compressed were three different compressed thicknesses and were therefore of dubious value as a shooting patch because they were inconsistent.

End of Nag.

Dutch

 

[Grenadier1758]

My father was a tool maker. Micrometers were precision instruments and he would have fits if I tried to get a compressed reading from a micrometer. If you have the click ratchet, you can go to about five clicks and take that reading. That will compress the cloth, but not put undo stress on the micrometer threads.

There is just too much that is inconsistent with the instruction to compress the fabric with the micrometer. In the store, the fabric has sizing which will add to the measured thickness. We need to precisely define how to measure compressed thickness and weave density. The compressed measurement should only be considered valid after the sizing is washed out and the fabric dried. The fabric will be fluffier if dried in the drier than if dried on a line, but the slight compression of five clicks will give very similar readings for both line dried or machine dried. Don't use the fabric softener for washing or softener cloths for drying.

 

[Dr5x]

Spence, I always thought you were way older than me. I must have mistaken wisdom for age.

In working up a load and a person is getting consistent 3 or 4 inch groups, Using a slightly thicker compressed measured patch material might make that group shrink a bit. I have suggested for years that when you get the goupssmaller that you "shim" the patching with a very thin paper, like cigarette paper, If this minuscule difference shows little or no effect. Shim it with two layers of this thin paper and so forth..
If This procedure gets you where you want to be THEN take a impressed measurement of the patch material and the same number of layers of paper to get a measurement and then go search for a fabric that approximates that thickness as possible
By "Shimming" I mean placing a sheet of thin paper between the ball and patch material to increase its thickness a very small amount.

To answer your question about using a patch material that compresses to be a tad thicker than the ideal you have established. It might still give you good accuracy if the increase is slight. If more than slight it would just be harder to load.

All of this presumes you are eliminating the build up of baked on residue from previous shots and that you are not using some too slick patch lube.
Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

Grenadier.
Did your father make tools of cloth? No he made them from steel. and he would bright in having fits.
I doubt if your five clicks would make much difference.
If you are holding the barrel of the Mic twice thumb and fore finger you will not be able to exert enough pressure to hurt the micrometer.
I used my Starret Mic repeatedly for a number of years and when there was no cloth involved it always went to zero. It was not hurt inanywayy.

However, if your method gives you satisfaction, stick with it

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you have the click ratchet, you can go to about five clicks and take that reading. That will compress the cloth, but not put undo stress on the micrometer threads.

There is just too much that is inconsistent with the instruction to compress the fabric with the micrometer

Bingo, Grenadier! :thumbsup:
As I see it, and when I buy my ticking, consistency is the name of the game. I use a click mic. I consider that I am not "compressing" the cloth, just sorta smushing it the same amount every time I shop. When I get the same measurement that has worked for me in the past, I buy some.

 

[George]

To answer your question about using a patch material that compresses to be a tad thicker than the ideal you have established. It might still give you good accuracy if the increase is slight. If more than slight it would just be harder to load.

Yes, it would be harder to load, but would it degrade accuracy?

What I'm trying to figure out is whether you think there is a threshold of patch thickness, so that all is well as long as the patch is of at least that thickness. If you do, then it would not matter if the patch was thicker than the ideal.

From your teaching the trick of shimming with cigarette paper I assume you think the very best accuracy comes only with one precise compressed patch thickness and that accuracy will decline if you use a thickness less than that or thicker than that. I ask the question because I want to be sure I understand what you believe about it..

Spence

 

[hanshi]

If you have the click ratchet, you can go to about five clicks and take that reading. That will compress the cloth, but not put undo stress on the micrometer threads.

There is just too much that is inconsistent with the instruction to compress the fabric with the micrometer

Bingo, Grenadier! :thumbsup:
As I see it, and when I buy my ticking, consistency is the name of the game. I use a click mic. I consider that I am not "compressing" the cloth, just sorta smushing it the same amount every time I shop. When I get the same measurement that has worked for me in the past, I buy some.

I do the same thing only using a caliper. I squeeze the jaws with both hands as hard a I can.

 

[Dr5x]

Great! I don't believe the 5 click thingy will get you there but you gentlemen seem adamant about the weaker effort.

I expect to seethe villagers carrying pitchforks and torches heading this way. I shall hide.

The click thingy is very useful when using the micrometer to to measure steel hard items. Not cloth.

I have said about 98 times if what you are doing disagrees with my findings and you are pleased with it for heaven's sake stick with it.
My triumph here is that people are now compressing the fabric when selecting it. No One was doing that before I apparently began to fuss with your minds.

I hope you all have finally learned that the .018 and ,015 patch material are actually not that thick when compressed., but appreciably smaller.

I've been try to convince folks of that since I first began to infest the Forum.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

Spence I do not think there is an ideal patch thickness for all ball/patch combinations.
I think that for a given ball size in a specific barrel there should be an ideal thickness to seal the gases behind the patched ball yet to possibly provide the ideal resistance

It is exactly like the piston rings in a motor. If they are smaller or even larger than they should be the motor will run perhaps bu not well

The shooting patch performs the same function..
Getting it right for the balls you are using w in the barrel you are loading is to me unarguable
EWWhy do you think a sloppy fit is good for all balls.

If you have two rifles of the same caliber from the same manufacturer it is possible that using the same size ball in both there is a chance that allowing for American tolerancesm that might each require a slightly different patch thickness, Compressed measurement only

It is a bit of extra effort to determine as exact a thickness of your patching but the tightness of the groups are amazing
To not try for extreme accuracy is a waste of the product and not a lot more than a noisy smoke maker. I don't for a minute think that describes your good self but I am puzzled by you argument.

Dutch

 

[George]

I don't for a minute think that describes your good self but I am puzzled by you argument.

I'm not aware of having made an argument, Dutch. All I intended to do, and I believe exactly what I did, was ask a question.

I do understand that the ideal compressed patch thickness you advocate will be different for each gun, not a generic one size fits all.

So, I'll have another go...

If I have determined the ideal compressed patch thickness for my particular barrel and ball, why would using a thicker patch make accuracy worse?

Spence

 

[azmntman]

Easy, cuz if its not the ideal load then yer shooting a less than ideal load :grin: :slap:

Tight is right 99% of the time. I'll say it again, I almost sold my CVA .36. Then fer reasons only known to the dog and a few crickets I tried a real tight woven THIN loose patch and BINGO. from 3-4" to 1" and now I can start playing with it. Bit of a mind freak too, I will be expecting to do well so that may help VS expecting to again ponder if cleaning the dang thing would be worth it :idunno:

 

[Britsmoothy]

See now I don't buy all this tight patch thing, why, because a pure lead ball upsets a little under acceleration and to some extent compress the patch. That's how we get the weave imprint on the ball and often detectable in the groove portions of the ball.

I still hold dearly to gun and stock and lock relationship as being the most important considerations for repeatable accuracy from a muzzleloader.

B.

 

[Bent Sight]

Easy, cuz if its not the ideal load then yer shooting a less than ideal load :grin: :slap:

Tight is right 99% of the time. I'll say it again, I almost sold my CVA .36. Then fer reasons only known to the dog and a few crickets I tried a real tight woven THIN loose patch and BINGO. from 3-4" to 1" and now I can start playing with it. Bit of a mind freak too, I will be expecting to do well so that may help VS expecting to again ponder if cleaning the dang thing would be worth it :idunno:

So moving to a looser fitting patch improved your groups? What kind of patch lube are you using?

 

[azmntman]

I had a 15 yr old tube of pine scented bore butter. I opened it up and a HUGE glob of it hit me in the chest and nailed the strip of patch too so I rubbed it in liberally. I have a few strips of Dutchs system ready to go and will see if I can get it even tighter. IMHO about any decent gun should cloverleaf at 25 yds

BTW I used to be azmntman. I hope to be again someday. I CANT recall the password I set up with so many years ago but will keep trying

Hmm.......I guess I still am. But now I used to be poofagain? GEEZ do I hate change

 

[George]

Dutch, did you make it through the change?

Spence

 

[Grenadier1758]

I've seen a few Dr.5x postings. He made it through and Angie knows he needs some assistance due to his eyesight.

 

[George]

Well, Dutch, we survived the big switcheroo, so we can get back to the important stuff. Before we were so rudely interrupted I was asking why you think a patch that is too thick would make the shot less accurate. Care to pick up where we left off?

Spence

 

[Greenjoytj]

I did 2 things:
1) I tested the thickness of my patch cloth by twisting the barrel of my micrometer quite hard, which allowed me to know more accurately the practical shooting thickness of my patch cloth. The screw in the mic provides the mechanical advantage to squeeze the cloth more like it gets squeezed in the rifle when sandwiched between the ball and bore.

2) I put a heavy piece of brass rod into the rifle bore and dry ball loaded a patch round ball about 2” into the barrel. Upended the rifle and bounced the brass rod slide hammer style to push out the ball. Close examination with a strong magnifying glass showed the cloth weave pattern embossed in belt all around the .535” ball. Heavily embossed on the lands and a little lighter in the grooves. The .530” loaded much easier but didn’t show the cloth pattern in the grooves.

I chose to use the tighter fitting PRB combination as its 50 yd accuracy was much better with the hunting weight powder charge I was using.

Once I keeped the rifle loaded for 2 days then pulled the ball, l was shocked how easy the PRB came up and out. The tight fit of the seated load was under a state of changing pressure over the 2 days it was loaded.