Parker Hale vs Pedersoli

[Whitworth]

https://vringblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/bedding-the-p53-barrel/

 

[nkbj]

https://vringblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/bedding-the-p53-barrel/

Thanks for the link.
Got a replica P53 to tinker with when the spring thaw gets here, and really looking forwards to trying out long heavy bullets because it was put together with a faster twist.

About the Parker-Hale muzzleloaders, it seems strange but there are still unfired pieces occasionally coming up for sale. After this many decades though finding one in pristine condition is getting to be a bit unusual.

 

[Dugite]

Not sure if all Birmingham Parker Hale's came from the factory with these accessories.
I bought mine in the 1970's and these came with it from the factory.

 

[TFoley]

Not sure if all Birmingham Parker Hale's came from the factory with these accessories.I bought mine in the 1970's and these came with it from the factory.

Yup. All came together. Keep them like that. My Whitworth from 1986 came with a Lyman mould sans handles, chrome-plated T-wrench and a knock-through sizing die.

I still have the mould, but the wrench and sizing die disappeared when the guy I lent them to drove off after a meet-up at Bisley, taking them with him. Needless to say, around twenty years later, they are still gone.

 

[TFoley]

Early Parkers were made in Bingmington, England and were a cut above the later Parkers because they featured progressive depthed rifling like the originals. Quality was insanely good with the British made guns.

Later Parker & Hale switched production of the Enfields to Italy. Quality is about what you’d see with a modern Pedroselli. That is to say good but not nearly as good as the early Parkers.

Parker-Hale NEVER switched production to Italy. They went into receivership in the early 1990's and all the tooling and many barrels and parts were disposed of to Navy Arms' production facilities in Italy. As has been mentioned here many times before by me and David Minshall of the MLAGB,original production of ALL models went to around 9000 or so. After that, BARRELS only went as high as 14000 or so - the rest was either using up of any parts, including locks, but after that, the manufacture was totally Italian. Even Pedersoli - and you can read the letter from Pedersoli here if you do some searching - got to use a few of the P-H Whitworth barrels for the early production of THEIR Whitworth rifle around four years ago.

As for quality, well, another shooter here [mornin'. Roger/Dungspreader] was less than impressed at Pedersoli's QC on his Whitworth.

So you take your money and make your choice - there will NEVER be a replica to match the genuine P-H production, early of otherwise. My Whitworths, #42X and #88X are unmatched except by the real thing.

 

[TFoley]

Read David

Well I just bought the Parker-Hale for €1000. The commission and 20% sales tax comes to €300 and is included in the price. If you subtract that it puts it in the ball park of US prices, plus I don’t think I’ll get another chance at a gun like this in the near future.

Now I am counting on members to help me get it shooting to it’s potential. This is my first rifled muzzle loader. So far I’ve been shooting smooth bore. How do I determine the correct diameter of projectile? Are there different styles and weights or are all minie balls more or less the same?

Thanks

Read David Minshall's first class article about shooting the P53 Enfield on his research Press site. And be prepared to do a little work on the stock bedding. Because of the way the barrel channel was cut, there is often a slight ridge down the centre of the channel that needs to be removed, also care needs to be taken that the bolster does not make contact with the lock, and that it is fully-bedded in the cutout. You can read all about it anyhow. If you intend to use it fro serious shooting, then buying a platinum-lined nipple makes real sense, even at around eu140. Peter Dyson makes them - see his site.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I had a Parker Hale rifle, Im still sad I got rid of it 40 years ago. It was a fine machine.
I am still ****** I sold it all that time ago.

Oh the other hand, I bought a new Pedersoli 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle. Not a fine machine. I got 8 shots out of it and the frizzen broke. 10 months later, Dixie Gun Works made me another frizzen, because Pedersoli. does not made spare parts.

 

[TFoley]

Advice to anybody looking for the best replication of a two or three band Enfield rifle - try your darndest to find a REAL Parker-Hale version - pre-9000 serials. I had to wait THREE years after ordering my first Whitworth because prior to that 95% of the production had gone to the USA. You guys just plain sucked 'em ALL up like a dying man at a water-hole. Most of them are STILL in the US of A.

 

[Whitworth]

Advice to anybody looking for the best replication of a two or three band Enfield rifle - try your darndest to find a REAL Parker-Hale version - pre-9000 serials. I had to wait THREE years after ordering my first Whitworth because prior to that 95% of the production had gone to the USA. You guys just plain sucked 'em ALL up like a dying man at a water-hole. Most of them are STILL in the US of A.

I snagged my glass bedded 2 bander from a North South Skirmish shooter/re-enactor last year for only $500. Nicely aged with lots use it looks like a period piece.

 

[TFoley]

The Naval 2-band short rifle is by all accounts, THE shooter, due to it's thicker barrel, so I'm told. I be's looking out for one over here. Whinemeal, down in Portsmouth Naval Dockyard, the veteran warship, HMS Warrior, is fully equipped with HUNDREDS of 'em in ready-use racks on the lower deck. All fully-functional but, for inexplicable reason, all lacking their back sight/

Mr Whitworth, Sir, you STOLE that rifle.

 

[Whitworth]

The Naval 2-band short rifle is by all accounts, THE shooter, due to it's thicker barrel, so I'm told. I be's looking out for one over here. Whinemeal, down in Portsmouth Naval Dockyard, the veteran warship, HMS Warrior, is fully equipped with HUNDREDS of 'em in ready-use racks on the lower deck. All fully-functional but, for inexplicable reason, all lacking their back sight/

Mr Whitworth, Sir, you STOLE that rifle.

Thank you Sir, in this case being considered a thief is a compliment.

 

[jimhallam]

The Naval 2-band short rifle is by all accounts, THE shooter, due to it's thicker barrel, so I'm told. I be's looking out for one over here. Whinemeal, down in Portsmouth Naval Dockyard, the veteran warship, HMS Warrior, is fully equipped with HUNDREDS of 'em in ready-use racks on the lower deck. All fully-functional but, for inexplicable reason, all lacking their back sight/

Mr Whitworth, Sir, you STOLE that rifle.

The "Warrior rifles" are NOT fully-functional, they have solid barrels (apart from a short section at the muzzle) so they did not count as "firearms" under UK Law. The 2-band Naval rifle is definitely the best shooter IF you use the correct bullet --- that's why it is not permitted in some MLAGB Matches.
I understand why some N-SSA competitors glass-bed their rifles but that makes them less "original". Probably in the UK certain people would be pressing for a separate "Target Rifle-Musket" class ;-) Years ago Bill Curtis -- sady he died on Jan 11 this year -- wrote an article about how to improve the shooting of a P-H. I am sure that David Minshall would be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[muzzlecap]

I have a Pedersoli Whitworth. A couple of days ago I picked up a pretty much as new Parker Hale Whitworth with a low 3 digit serial number. The Pedersoli is not bad by any means but the fit/finish of the Parker Hale is nicer. I have the other models of Parker Hales as well and the finish is nice on all of them. Price wise, here in Canada, about 5 years ago I paid $800.00 for the 1853 and it too is as new. I think I paid $475.00 for the 1861 and $550.00 for the 2 band naval. The Whitworth I just bought I paid $1100.00.

 

[TFoley]

I have a Pedersoli Whitworth. A couple of days ago I picked up a pretty much as new Parker Hale Whitworth with a low 3 digit serial number. The Pedersoli is not bad by any means but the fit/finish of the Parker Hale is nicer. I have the other models of Parker Hales as well and the finish is nice on all of them. Price wise, here in Canada, about 5 years ago I paid $800.00 for the 1853 and it too is as new. I think I paid $475.00 for the 1861 and $550.00 for the 2 band naval. The Whitworth I just bought I paid $1100.00.

If you paid in CAN$ then you stole them all. Can you pass me details of the stamps on your parker-Hales? By PM, of course, so I can pass them on the David Minshall who is summarising the production figures for an archive. I need the serials and the details of the proof marks under the breech. I've PM'd you with my email details.

Many thanks.

 

[TFoley]

The "Warrior rifles" are NOT fully-functional, they have solid barrels (apart from a short section at the muzzle) so they did not count as "firearms" under UK Law. The 2-band Naval rifle is definitely the best shooter IF you use the correct bullet --- that's why it is not permitted in some MLAGB Matches.I understand why some N-SSA competitors glass-bed their rifles but that makes them less "original". Probably in the UK certain people would be pressing for a separate "Target Rifle-Musket" class ;-) Years ago Bill Curtis -- sady he died on Jan 11 this year -- wrote an article about how to improve the shooting of a P-H. I am sure that David Minshall would be able to point you in the right direction.

Ah, the guy showing us around lied to me then....... I'll really miss Mr Curtis. He was never less than a complete gentleman in all the years I knew him - his vast store of knowledge, most of which was gained practically, will be missed by all of us who love older guns. RIP, Bill.

 

[GregLaRoche]

Is the shorter two band Enfield a better shooter because it has a faster rifling twist?

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Is the shorter two band Enfield a better shooter because it has a faster rifling twist?

The two banders have a superb reputation for accuracy. I think many will agree that by and large the 2 band Naval probably the best shooter of the lot. But the superb handy musketoon is a whoop and a wholler! Great brush gun too for hogs and deers.

 

[pchwcf50110]

I have both PH Whitworth and Volunteer models and the Euro Arms versions of each. Yes the PH models have better fit and finish but they don't shoot any better than the Euro Arms models. I'm pretty sure the barrels were hammer forged on the same machinery.

 

[ResearchPress]

Is the shorter two band Enfield a better shooter because it has a faster rifling twist?

It may be a combination of the rifling twist, the weight of barrel and the position of the rearsight. the latter is further forwards than the P.53 and for some gives a clearer sight picture.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

I have a free magazine, Research Press Journal, for download on my web site. The new edition features a brochure for the P-H P.61 Artillery Carbine - within it will be found a picture of some of the gauges that P-H borrowed from the pattern room. See: Research Press Journal, issue 10, winter 2020/21 (pdf, 40 pages)

David