P-H 2 band Enfield

[rickpa]

Did the original Parker Hale 2 band Enfields have gain twist progressive depth rifling? There is one on GB that looks to be unfired with original box and papers. My understanding is that these were better than the three band Enfields because of the rifling. A re-enactor friend isn't interested because his unit uses the three band model so I gave some thought to bidding on this one. I'm strictly a flintlock shooter and have never played around with rifled muskets. What might be a good starting charge?

 

[Stantheman86]

The P-H's have progressive depth rifling but I'm not sure they have gain twist....

I have two Parker Hale Musketoons and I use 60 gr of 2f with a .575 Minie.

The 2-banders made by Parker Hale are considered the best shooters out of the whole P-H .577 lineup.

 

[ResearchPress]

Did the original Parker Hale 2 band Enfields have gain twist progressive depth rifling? ... .. My understanding is that these were better than the three band Enfields because of the rifling...

Both the P.53 (three band) and the P.58 (two band) have progressive depth rifling. Neither are gain twist. The rear sight on the P.58 is further forward than the P.53 and for some gives a better sight picture.

Charge is dependent on what you want to do with it. Many advocate light charges of FFFg for good accuracy and lobbing bullets into the target at short range (50/100 yards). If you want to push the range out some, then heavier charges of coarser grain powders may be better. See the following, which may assist: Managing the Enfield

David

 

[bisleyjohn]

Excellent article. Been shooting forty years, why do I know so little? Still, my PH 2 band IS a lot of fun and the groups are getting smaller. So much to learn and so little time. Currently using 60 grains Swiss No.3 out to 100x.

 

[dave951]

Yes on progressive rifling, no on gain twist.

My PH is a sub 2moa gun with my load of 42gr 3f and a Hogdon minie lubed with beeswax/lard.

 

[rickpa]

Thanks for the replies. Still a week left on the auction for me to make up my mind to buy it. Seeing as how my 10 year old vehicle needs work its looking like I'm regretfully going to skip this. Living on SS and a pension has its downside.

 

[bisleyjohn]

Yes on progressive rifling, no on gain twist.

My PH is a sub 2moa gun with my load of 42gr 3f and a Hogdon minie lubed with beeswax/lard.

Dave, thanks, that is useful. My beeswax/Trex 10/90 keeps loading easy. I’ll try a reduced load. I’m using the Lyman PH mould ‘Minnie’ my best so far at 50m is about 3’ moa and twice that at 100. Like I say, so much to learn.

 

[Stantheman86]

I almost went after a P-H made in Birmingham 3-bander but with having the Musketoons it didn't seem like spending $900+ was a good idea.

 

[bisleyjohn]

I almost went after a P-H made in Birmingham 3-bander but with having the Musketoons it didn't seem like spending $900+ was a good idea.

I was lucky I think, picked up my Navy 2 band for £320.00. Bore is excellent with just a couple of dents in the wood. Only the nut behind the butt wants tightening

 

[TFoley]

I was lucky I think, picked up my Navy 2 band for £320.00. Bore is excellent with just a couple of dents in the wood. Only the nut behind the butt wants tightening

Please post the serial number here for Mr Minshall of the MLAGB, who is formulating a register of all known Parker-Hale muzzleloading rifles. Or write him on his researchpress site, if you are concerned about posting such details.

 

[bisleyjohn]

Done,

Midnight here. Land of Nodd for me

 

[nkbj]

My Armisport P53 doesn't have gain twist but they put a 48" twist in the barrels that week.

 

[Heelerau]

The Parker Hale two band rifle has 1 in 48 twist, it has progressive depth ie deeper at the breech end shallower at the muzzle. They shoot better at longer ranges than the 3 band rifles with 1in 78 slower twist. Parker Hale reproductions were produced using the original gauges from the Tower of london. My only comment is they are not as well set up as original rifles, and do need the barrels to be bedded. To much wood was removed at the breech ends. David Minshalls great site. The Enfield Rifle Resource, explains how to get the best out of these fine rifles. If you have an opportunity to purchase any of the Parker Hale reproductions, do it you won't be disappointed.

 

[TFoley]

The Parker Hale two band rifle has 1 in 48 twist, it has progressive depth ie deeper at the breech end shallower at the muzzle. They shoot better at longer ranges than the 3 band rifles with 1in 78 slower twist. Parker Hale reproductions were produced using the original gauges from the Tower of london. My only comment is they are not as well set up as original rifles, and do need the barrels to be bedded. To much wood was removed at the breech ends. David Minshalls great site. The Enfield Rifle Resource, explains how to get the best out of these fine rifles. If you have an opportunity to purchase any of the Parker Hale reproductions, do it you won't be disappointed.

The P53 patterns, jigs and gauges, in their secure storage box, were loaned to Parker-Hale by the Ministry of Defence Pattern Room, at that time - mid-70s - located at the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield Lock, home of British military small arms since the 1840's. I wasn't there when they were loaned out, but I sure WAS there when they came back in the late 1990s, to the re-located MoD Pattern Room at Nottingham, at that time home of BAe Systems and the manufacturers of the British Armed Forces L85A1 bullpup service rifle - AKA SA80.

I personally assisted the curator, Herbie Woodend MBE, in checking the contents of the chest against the original loan card details, to make sure that everything was there. I was asked to do it as I was in no way connected with either the Pattern Room, or Parker-Hale, and would therefore be unbiased in my checking - these were, after all, small but nevertheless significant national treasures we are talking about here. Their return had been the subject of much acrimony over the previous many years, and although I was not privy to it, the not-happy-bunny feeling was distinctly lacking on the part of the MoD. Mr Woodend was of the opinion that had they not been returned at that time, they may well have ended up in Italy.

Adding to Heelerau's comment, Mr Minshall's excellent article particularly highlights the slightly raised ridge of material in the centre of the barrel channel, which prevents the barrel from snugging down correctly. This can easily be removed by means of a piece of fairly coarse sandpaper wrapped around piece of dowel of suitable diameter, and its removal makes an almost instant improvement.

 

[Enfield58]

I realize that this thread is about the Parker Hale Enfield and offer my apologies in advance if it appears that I am hi-jacking it.

With that said, I was wondering if anyone knows how close the Pedersoli Enfields are to copying the original or the Parker-Hale versions.

I read, that some time ago, Parker Hale sold all the tooling to Pedersoli. Is that correct?

 

[bisleyjohn]

I realize that this thread is about the Parker Hale Enfield and offer my apologies in advance if it appears that I am hi-jacking it.

With that said, I was wondering if anyone knows how close the Pedersoli Enfields are to copying the original or the Parker-Hale versions.

I read, that some time ago, Parker Hale sold all the tooling to Pedersoli. Is that correct?

I had heard that too but have doubts. There was, I believe some acrimony between PH and the pattern room because of the difficulty the Pattern Room experienced in getting the tooling and jigs returned. I believe that the original stuff was copied by PH and it may be these copies which Pedersoli obtained when PH closed. Has anyone tried asking them?

 

[ResearchPress]

Insofar as I understood, what Parker-Hale had access to was a set of Enfield Inspectors' Gauges. This enabled them to copy from original gauges the specifications for the machine made rifle. When Parker-Hale went out of business, Euroarms purchased the rights to use the name and sold for a while their version of the Enfield with a Parker-Hale barrel.

David

 

[bisleyjohn]

Insofar as I understood, what Parker-Hale had access to was a set of Enfield Inspectors' Gauges. This enabled them to copy from original gauges the specifications for the machine made rifle. When Parker-Hale went out of business, Euroarms purchased the rights to use the name and sold for a while their version of the Enfield with a Parker-Hale barrel.

David

Thanks David,

Regards

John

 

[TFoley]

Insofar as I understood, what Parker-Hale had access to was a set of Enfield Inspectors' Gauges. This enabled them to copy from original gauges the specifications for the machine made rifle. When Parker-Hale went out of business, Euroarms purchased the rights to use the name and sold for a while their version of the Enfield with a Parker-Hale barrel.

David

Indeed, your own post some time ago on another forum noted that totally P-H manufacture amounted to about 9000 serialed rifles, and some 6000 barrels and other parts being sold to EuroArms. After serial 14000 or so, there was no P-H content of any kind. Pedersoli must therefore have copied a good original P-H or even a REAL original in as unfired a condition as possible. They are categorically NOT in the same league as the original Parker-Hale production. You may, if you wish, talk to Tony Kinchin, who was Parker-Hale's production engineer. He was responsible, not only for the hammer forging of the barrels, but for the beautiful bone case hardening on the locks and hammers - no mean feat with the hammer being an investment casting.

 

[ResearchPress]

I was aware of Tony's input (PM sent). One further point on the Pedersoli Enfields, I don't think they have progressive depth rifling. If anyone can confirm otherwise it would be good to know.

David