Over powder cards

[George91946]

I'm still struggling with my NW trade gun. I posted previously about a dent in the barrel and a non sparking L &R lock. Replaced the barrel, and sent the lock off to L & R who did an excellent fix for me in record time (thanks to them). Now am burning patches, and want to try over powder wads with thinner patches. My loading data for the 0.60 cal barrel so far include:
60 grains 2 or 3 F (2 F seems slightly better)
0.595 poured round balls
0.020 pillow ticking patches

Was using 0.030 Muslin, but got better results with the thinner patches, but get some burn through with them. Tried 0.60 balls with 0.01 patches, but got no real accuracy from that.

Now want to try a over powder card with the 0.595 balls in order to see if I can reduce patch burn.

What can I expect in regards to accuracy and point of impact when I use a wad? Will the extra seal make the muzzle velocity higher and raise the point of impact, or will the extra friction and mass reduce the muzzle velocity and lower point of impact?

Thanks

Lisle George

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Now want to try a over powder card with the 0.595 balls in order to see if I can reduce patch burn.

What can I expect in regards to accuracy and point of impact when I use a wad? Will the extra seal make the muzzle velocity higher and raise the point of impact, or will the extra friction and mass reduce the muzzle velocity and lower point of impact?

You might try running a patch down on top of the powder before you load the patched ball. These, like corn meal or wasp-nest fillers, get wedged into the periphery under the ball and help seal, even under fairly loose ball/patch combinations. Generally, when you improve the gas seal, velocities go up, and POI tends to rise with them, but the changes in recoil and barrel vibration can affect POI.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Canerod]

Each gun seems to have it's own quirks, but I did tighten my group and raise the POI a bit when I started using an OP card under the ball. I use a .600 ball with a .010 patch and have no burning through with this combo.

PM me with your address and I'll send you out some 20ga OP cards to try. If they work for you, then buy the bag of 500 or 1000 from Circle Fly. If they don't help, you're out nothing but some powder and range time.

Kevin

 

[paulvallandigham]

George: The nominal diameter of a 20 gauge fowler is .615", But some barrels are larger( Mine is .626-7"), and some are smaller. YOU HAVE TO MEASURE THE BORE DIAMETER TO a thousandth of an inch to KNOW anything about what patches, and wads to use. Otherwise, you are only GUESSING.

A good OP wad will serve as a firewall, keeping th e burning powder away from your patch, so it doesn't burn in the barrel. As suggested, you can answer a lot of questions about how well this will work, and what kind of changes you might see in the POI, MV, and SDV, by using a filler. You have dried breakfast cereals in your home, like most of us, so you can use Corn meal, or Corn flour( sold for making corn muffins),Cream of Wheat, Oats( Oatmeal) Grits, or any other ground meal you find in the cupboard that can be "borrowed", without disturbing your domestic Goddess. Expect the MV to increase a bit. Expect the SDV to go down- a lot, as the OP wad will cause a more complete burning of the powder charge. Expect the POI to rise, a bit, but not enough to be worried about shooting over the target. I saw a HUGE change in the POI in my 20 gauge, when I stopped using 20 ga. wads, and bought and used 19 gauge wads, which better fit my bore. I would not expect you to see the same amount of change if your barrel is actually .600"( I doubt it is, but until you actually measure the bore, neither of us can know). :hmm: :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use a leather wad between my powder and patches to protect the powder from the lube fouling the powder. And I have noticed that it also reduces the patch burning when using larger ball/thinner patches. If you want to try a simple approximation is to just fold over a cleaning patch and use it between the powder and ball.It will reduce the patch burning but not effect any tearing from a rough bore.

 

[Mike Brooks]

: The nominal diameter of a 20 gauge fowler is .615",

More like .620.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Actually Mike, .615 is the "standard" for 20 gauge but I have a Savage breechloader which measures .625", I think they just saved money by using a common 5/8" reamer. :haha:

 

[buttonbuck]

My green mountain barrel measures .615, when I slugged the barrel. I would worry about slugging a fowler since the barrel wall is thinner. I finally figured out what was causing me to mess up my patches was this. I used a bore button or jag screwed on the end of my TC starter. The Jag would grab the patch material and weaken the material when starting the ball. I shot 60g or Goex. I cast up some 590 balls and am anxious to try these and the 60 with my new short starter and see what happens.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sorry, Mike. I know how much you like to disagree with me, and call me "wrong", but I took this nominal diameter for a 20 gauge right off a chart Posted on this forum, By Musketman,- an "Assistant Administrator-- back in 2006. The Nominal Diameter IS .615". He, in turn, cites as his source, Martin Pegler's book, "Powder and Ball Small Arms". ( Post #234540, 2-09-06/ 7:03 PM. The Topic of the thread is: What Gauge smoothbore would you choose?)

Happy New Year, anyway, Mike. I don't care what others are saying, I never thought you weren't human, even if you may have been confused about that issue at times. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[George91946]

Both of the "20 gauge" barrels that I have received from TOTW measured by calipers at 0.60 inches. I would have preferred the true 20 cal ID barrel, but that is what they have measured.

When I've dry balled the gun (sad stories) and removed the balls with a puller, the patches have not been torn, so I'm pretty sure that the patches are burning and are not tearing during insertion.


Lisle George

 

[BrownBear]

I can't say for sure, but based on my own experience I'm going to ponder that those are both Green Mountain barrels. Their 62's are tighter than tight, while the others I own are .620 +/- a skosh. As far as I know, GM is the only one that goes so small, but I'm short on experience compared to a bonified user and builder like Mike Brooks. He's been there, done that.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I was gettin' burnt patches in my 58 so using my short starter I short start a patch first and then short start a patched ball on top and ram the lot home. No more burnt patch and shoots good.

I will add my patches are greased well with beef fat/olive oil mix.

Brits.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The nominal diameter for a 21 gauge barrel is .605", so it sounds like these barrels are being bored intentionally smaller in diameter. I know from my own gun maker that barrels called 20 gauge can vary from .605" to .629( 21 ga. to 19 ga.) So you have to pick your components accordingly.

You can order 21 ga. wads, and cards through TOTW, and other suppliers. Round balls come as small as .595 from commercial casters, but that is a bit large for your small diameter. You might be better served by having Tanner make you a ball mold in .585" diameter for that gun, if you are going to do much RB shooting with it. Contact both Eddie May, and Rush Creek about buying cast balls the right size for your gun.

 

[roundball]

I can't say for sure, but based on my own experience I'm going to ponder that those are both Green Mountain barrels. Their 62's are tighter than tight, while the others I own are .620 +/- a skosh. As far as I know, GM is the only one that goes so small, but I'm short on experience compared to a bonified user and builder like Mike Brooks. He's been there, done that.

FWIW, out of a total of 4 GM .62cal drop-in Flint smoothbore barrels I've owned, every one of them mic'd .610".

Called and discussed with GM when I got the very first barrel thinking it had been built in error but was told, nope, they bore their .62cals to .610" diameter.

By contrast, my .62cal Rice barrel is a solid .620"...shoots a .600" ball and .022" patch like a rifle.

 

[BrownBear]

That jibes with mine. At the other extreme from GM, I've got a 62 cal rifle that's at it's best with a .615 ball and a .024 patch.... And doesn't require a short starter!

I'm thinking that saying "62 caliber" implies as much variability as saying "58 caliber." There's such a wide range in both that I'd have trouble pegging any one as standard. A smoothie (or rifle) is what it is, and it will tell you what it likes best.

 

[shootemup]

Hi Lisle,

Have you considered a fiber cushion wad under your roundball?

I have had very good luck using a cushion wad over the hard over-powder card. The patched roundball sits on top of the cushion wad, the theory being that the cushion wad will give a little and allow the ball to sink into it just a bit. This helps to keep the ball centered as it moves up the bore. I can't swear that's exactly what's happening, but it has worked very well for me for a number of years. Burn-through is a non-issue.

Bob Spencer, a member of this forum, has an article about shooting roundball from a smoothbore on his excellent website:
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

Hope this helps, let us know how it all works out.

:hatsoff:
Spot

 

[George91946]

Spot:

Are you talking about the thick things for shotguns?

Thanks

Lisle

 

[F.G. Ford]

Great read " The Versatile Smoothbore"
That fellow really did his homework.
Thank you for the link.
Best regards
Old Ford

 

[shootemup]

Spot:

Are you talking about the thick things for shotguns?

Thanks

Lisle

Yep, them's the ones. :grin:

 

[dick rankin]

When you guys are talking about burnt patches are you referring to patches simply burnt or burnt through? Guess I can't see any problems with a burnt patch but am imagining there could be if a patch is being burnt through. My smoothie measures .618. I'm currently using .018 pre wonderlubed ticking and a .595 ball over 65-80 grains of 2f. I guess my patches have a nice round blackish circle on them but are not burning through. I don't see much difference in accuracy with the 2f or 3f or loads from 65-80. Over 80 I get a pretty good jolt on my cheek so don't go above this. I've shot with a cusion wad over the powder and actually had the wads hitting the target at 25 yds. I didn't notice any increase in accuracy.