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tenngun

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Politics has always been a blood sport.
It was in the UKs and Frances interest to support the south, but politically they couldn’t be made to look like they supported slavery. Lincoln had to present the war as antislavery, but at the same time a majority of the north didn’t back Lincoln on slavery.
Lincoln had to treat the war domestically as a war to prevent dissolution of the Union. While at the same time he had to keep the backing of Pennsylvania and New England. While juggling there he had cabinet full of those that didn’t think this country ner-do-well lawyer was fit to be be president .
The ‘Cause’ was easy to explain to the country boy the south asked to fight. Simply defending their home from an invader bent on disenfranchising them from their rights. The ‘Cause’ for the north to fight for was more tenuous, Preserve the Union.
Lincoln had to dance on a knifes edge... in wet moccasins
The more his success the more he could make the people of the north happy, but the more he fed southern rhetoric. And at the same time England and France was ready for an excuse.
While I would argue all day Lincoln was constitutionally in the wrong I have to admire his political talent.
We talk about great generals while this country lawyer with zilch for political experience played the game with an expertise very few politicians ever had.
 

Diver63csa

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Politics has always been a blood sport.
It was in the UKs and Frances interest to support the south, but politically they couldn’t be made to look like they supported slavery. Lincoln had to present the war as antislavery, but at the same time a majority of the north didn’t back Lincoln on slavery.
Lincoln had to treat the war domestically as a war to prevent dissolution of the Union. While at the same time he had to keep the backing of Pennsylvania and New England. While juggling there he had cabinet full of those that didn’t think this country ner-do-well lawyer was fit to be be president .
The ‘Cause’ was easy to explain to the country boy the south asked to fight. Simply defending their home from an invader bent on disenfranchising them from their rights. The ‘Cause’ for the north to fight for was more tenuous, Preserve the Union.
Lincoln had to dance on a knifes edge... in wet moccasins
The more his success the more he could make the people of the north happy, but the more he fed southern rhetoric. And at the same time England and France was ready for an excuse.
While I would argue all day Lincoln was constitutionally in the wrong I have to admire his political talent.
We talk about great generals while this country lawyer with zilch for political experience played the game with an expertise very few politicians ever had.
while this is true Lincoln was no friend of the negro. He wanted to broker a deal with the slave holders and Congress to payoff the slave holders over 10 years and ship the slaves back to Africa. Congress refused and that lead to 650k casualties and millions of dollars in debt. But in the end Lincoln's war crimes for upsurping the rights of Americans in pursuit of his politcal goals is the most overlooked achievement of Lincoln. He did not free the slaves, Congress did and they could've avoided that war.
 

tenngun

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I agree, but a discussion of that spends off in to a thousand pages, name calling and personal attacks followed by Zoni closing the thread.
Often we hear of these grand multi generational dark organizations bent on setting up an oligarchy of some sort, Masons, illuminates Skull and Bones ect. The fact is planning any thing more then a year or two in advance is pretty much a political impossibility. Politicians operate in the dark most of the time, moving chess pieces blindly. No one North or south had any idea what monster they had loosed. And after lose what to do about him.
 
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kelljp

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Look up Lincoln's proposed 13th amendment in April 1861, which recognize the right of states to allow slaveholders to retain their property
 

nit wit

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My Grandmothers people came to Broad Bay Colony in Maine in 1742. They came from Germany near the Black Forest. They arrived in November and survived in a bark shelter. Waldo swindled them and sold them someone else's land, so they paid for it again, many of the others sailed for the Carolina's.
They were a hearty bunch and married local Scottish lasses. How could I possibly be stubborn!
Nit Wit
 

SB57

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Like many others, I had numerous ancestors who fought in the Civil War, the Mexican War, War of 1812, and the Revolution. All I can do is admire them for their dedication to whatever circumstances compelled them to leave their homes and fight for what they believed in (as far as I can tell it was always love of country or love of state - nothing else) and to endure the hardships that followed. I marvel at the anecdotes I have been able to gather when doing family research - a great great grandfather wounded on Oak Hill at Gettysburg on Day 1, a great uncle killed in the Wheatfield at Gettysburg, another great grandfather who fought at Petersburg then captured and imprisoned in Pt. Lookout MD, and yet another distant grandfather who was a cannoneer on the Brig Niagara at the Battle of Lake Erie in 1813 and later fought in the Mexican War. Hard to imagine going through what they all must have gone through. I hope history doesn't erase these efforts regardless of debates about what is right and wrong today.
 

kelljp

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My GG Uncle was in The Ny Volunteers...Simple as that. I cannot possibly think through his eyes as he was long gone before me. I like most am proud of the lineage connected to him but it has to stop there. In these modern times they ALL must be remembered for their sacrifices...on both sides right wrong or indifferent. Regardless of what they believed in. When I move South I am certainly not going to bring any modern day beliefs with me as far as modern day Politics and what goes with it. All I know under current circumstances is that everything is under fire now...each and every one of us. The smart ones ignore what happened 157 years ago and concentrate whats before our eyes....best SM
Sound thinking, my Great-great grandfather was killed on Oct 3rd 1864 fighting with the 37rh NC company B defending Richmond at Petersburg and is buried at Hollywood cemetery with 18000 loyal southerners. That being said the past is behind us, we need to move on.
 

kelljp

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Lincoln's failed attempt to unite the Union citizenry and soldiers backfired with the emancipation proclamation that freed slaves only in Confederate occupied states. It did nothing to Union occupied Confederate states or areas. He had to appease the abolitionist to maintain support for the war he had started. In the end no slaves were freed. When the Union army controlled New Orleans, this slaves remained enslaved. When the Union army savaged the south those slaves got away but were abused by the US Army.
I wonder why the emancipation proclamation is proclaimed as a humanitarian act for another race when on December 27 President Lincoln had thirty-eight Indians ordered for execution, at Mankato, at 10 a.m.
 
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The emancipation proclamation was nothing more than a order issued in hopes of drawing more negro men to the ranks of the union. And a political endeavor to bolster the republic.
 

LME

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Politics has always been a blood sport.
It was in the UKs and Frances interest to support the south, but politically they couldn’t be made to look like they supported slavery. Lincoln had to present the war as antislavery, but at the same time a majority of the north didn’t back Lincoln on slavery.
Lincoln had to treat the war domestically as a war to prevent dissolution of the Union. While at the same time he had to keep the backing of Pennsylvania and New England. While juggling there he had cabinet full of those that didn’t think this country ner-do-well lawyer was fit to be be president .
The ‘Cause’ was easy to explain to the country boy the south asked to fight. Simply defending their home from an invader bent on disenfranchising them from their rights. The ‘Cause’ for the north to fight for was more tenuous, Preserve the Union.
Lincoln had to dance on a knifes edge... in wet moccasins
The more his success the more he could make the people of the north happy, but the more he fed southern rhetoric. And at the same time England and France was ready for an excuse.
While I would argue all day Lincoln was constitutionally in the wrong I have to admire his political talent.
We talk about great generals while this country lawyer with zilch for political experience played the game with an expertise very few politicians ever had.
You nailed it! Your explaination of how Lincoln handled this situation Is about as close as one can get to the truth. I would only add that northern shipping magnates were scared that the south ,having three deep ports to ship from could cut them out of their cash cow and ship their product over seas themselves. This was more important to the north than the slave issue.
 

Sam squanch

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The story I was told by my uncles( dad never talked much) was that their grandfather lost a leg at Shiloh,fighting for the union. Ohio infantry, I think. Later, at the home place, he surprised and captured 2 rebel raiders. ( probably just lost) made them dig their own graves and shot them. With one leg gone. People were tough back then.
 

Eddie Southgate

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Had a bunch of family members that were Confederates . Both paternal great great grandfathers were captured and escaped . Grand paw Henry Norman was captured in Georgia and sent to camp Douglas and escaped soon after . Funny thing is the yanks didn't know he was missing until they went to release him at the end of the war and couldn't find him. Grand Paw Perry was captured when Fort Donaldson was surrendered . As the yanks marched the Confederates out of the fort grand paw Sam Perry and another fellow in his company stepped off the side of the road and let both armies pass before they left the area headed back to Ashland City Tennessee where they both reenlisted into other units. One great great uncle on the Southgate side was a Cavalry Captain killed around Atlanta and is buried in the Confederate Cemetery there . Two cousins are in the Confederate Veterans Home Cemetery at The Hermitage in Nashville , both survived the war . Grand paw Norman's cousin from Nolensville Tennessee was Confederate General Henry Hudson Norman , my 3rd cousin 3 times removed. Brigadier General James Morison Hawes of Kentucky was my 1st cousin 3 times removed by marriage to my cousin Martha Jane Southgate . There were a good number of others but I hate to type so these will have to do for now .

I'm proud of my Confederate heritage and proud to be from the South . If any of y'all want to call that some kind of hate just go on ahead , I couldn't care less .
 
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Had a bunch of family members that were Confederates . Both paternal great great grandfathers were captured and escaped . Grand paw Henry Norman was captured in Georgia and sent to camp Douglas and escaped soon after . Funny thing is the yanks didn't know he was missing until they went to release him at the end of the war and couldn't find him. Grand Paw Perry was captured when Fort Donaldson was surrendered . As the yanks marched the Confederates out of the fort grand paw Sam Perry and another fellow in his company stepped off the side of the road and let both armies pass before they left the area headed back to Ashland City Tennessee where they both reenlisted into other units. One great great uncle on the Southgate side was a Cavalry Captain killed around Atlanta and is buried in the Confederate Cemetery there . Two cousins are in the Confederate Veterans Home Cemetery at The Hermitage in Nashville , both survived the war . Grand paw Norman's cousin from Nolensville Tennessee was Confederate General Henry Hudson Norman , my 3rd cousin 3 times removed. Brigadier General James Morison Hawes of Kentucky was my 1st cousin 3 times removed by marriage to my cousin Martha Jane Southgate . There were a good number of others but I hate to type so these will have to do for now .

I'm proud of my Confederate heritage and proud to be from the South . If any of y'all want to call that some kind of hate just go on ahead , I couldn't care less .
[/QUOTE
Sir, may I call you Eddie ? I never paid much attention to put heritage until about '02. Gathered a lot of info and speculated about the veracity of most of it. Then up jumps the DNA tests. Well most of what I doubted was in fact true. I have direct folks on both sides of that traumatic conflict and I only have pride in all of them. They stood up for what they believed in. Period, it's that simple and honest.
Now you mentioned those other bothersome folks around today. They are afraid of anyone with scruples and ingrained principles. Afraid ,and that is why we are experiencing this second civil war.This one without guns.
Glad to know you Sir.
John
 

Eddie Southgate

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Glad to know you John . I had them on both sides also . The Captain that is buried in Atlanta had a brother from Kentucky that went to Indiana when the war started . They fought on opposite sides at Shiloh .

The old saying " Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it " will prove itself to be true at the rate things are going . Yep , I answer to Eddie , Ed , Edward , your pick .:thumb:

Eddie
 

Eddie Southgate

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I wonder why the emancipation proclamation is proclaimed as a humanitarian act for another race when on December 27 President Lincoln had thirty-eight Indians ordered for execution, at Mankato, at 10 a.m.
The emancipation proclamation was nothing more than a order issued in hopes of drawing more negro men to the ranks of the union. And a political endeavor to bolster the republic.
Lincoln was not concerned with slavery . He stated in public that his want was to bring the southern states back in to the union . He said if he could do that without freeing any slaves he would be just as glad to do it that way as any. He signed the emancipation proclamation in the hopes that the slaves would rise up in revolt and cause a major disruption in the souths economy . A lot of the slaves did run off but many did not so it was only partially successful. That was Lincoln's idea , if you read any of the accounts written by blacks back then you will find that their so called white northern saviors treated them like dirt when they ran off and came to the union camps.

The war was not fought for the purpose of being able to continue to hold slaves . That was not in question and there were no bills on the table immediately prior to the war that would have ended slavery in any of the slave states . That is a fact you can check for yourself . They did argue whether Missouri and Kansas would be allowed to decide on their own whether they would join the union as free states or slave . The republicans wanted to force them to be free states and the democrats thought the choice should go to the states themselves . States Rights , that is what it was fought over . Did you know that there were several northern states that attempted or threatened to withdraw from the union over other issues long before the south did in 1860 ? Read your history books .

Eddie
 

Eddie Southgate

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I misstated about Missouri joining the union , it had already been a state since 1820 as a slave state . Kansas joined in 1861 . There was much fighting between Kansas and Missouri over the slavery issue . It was what is considered the border wars.
 

Justin.44

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I misstated about Missouri joining the union , it had already been a state since 1820 as a slave state . Kansas joined in 1861 . There was much fighting between Kansas and Missouri over the slavery issue . It was what is considered the border wars.
I have a book on that subject. Haven't read it yet, maybe next..
20210603_051729.jpg
 

Okie Hog

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My 4th great grandfather fought in the Revolutionary war as did his son, my 3rd great grandfather. A total of 12 of my ancestors fought in that war. My 4th great grandfather John Hart signed the Declaration of Independence.

Then along came the Civil war where my great grandfather and four brothers fought for the Confederacy. My ancestor survived the war, where he killed numerous federal soldiers, i have his diary; my cousin has the sword of a federal Colonel he killed. Three of my ancestors brothers were were KIA and one, a civilian, was taken prisoner by the federal home guard of Barbour county, WV and died at at Camp Chase, Ohio. Soon after the war ended the home guard captain, one Michael Haller, paid with his life.

To folks interested in discovering where they came from: If you have a southern ancestor and are sensitive about the fight for southern independence; you may want to forgo the family tree thing. i did the DNA thing and was recently contacted by a lady who is descended from my Confederate great grandfather. Sent the lady some information on her ancestors but have heard nothing. She may be in shock at the idea of having a Confederate ancestor.

My father and his three brothers served in WWII. My brother was KIA on 17 November, 1965 at LZ Albany. i spent a career in the US Army, retiring in October, 1979.
 

tenngun

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Lincoln was not concerned with slavery . He stated in public that his want was to bring the southern states back in to the union . He said if he could do that without freeing any slaves he would be just as glad to do it that way as any. He signed the emancipation proclamation in the hopes that the slaves would rise up in revolt and cause a major disruption in the souths economy . A lot of the slaves did run off but many did not so it was only partially successful. That was Lincoln's idea , if you read any of the accounts written by blacks back then you will find that their so called white northern saviors treated them like dirt when they ran off and came to the union camps.

The war was not fought for the purpose of being able to continue to hold slaves . That was not in question and there were no bills on the table immediately prior to the war that would have ended slavery in any of the slave states . That is a fact you can check for yourself . They did argue whether Missouri and Kansas would be allowed to decide on their own whether they would join the union as free states or slave . The republicans wanted to force them to be free states and the democrats thought the choice should go to the states themselves . States Rights , that is what it was fought over . Did you know that there were several northern states that attempted or threatened to withdraw from the union over other issues long before the south did in 1860 ? Read your history books .

Eddie
Not fully correct.
Lincoln wanted to maintain the union. But the Republican Party was formed on ending slavery and Lincoln was anti slavery.
By stopping slavery from growing in to new states Lincoln hoped that quickly there would be enough non slave states to pass an antislavery amendment.
The south wanted to protect its property. Had the south not been able to expand as a region they would be politically emasculated.
Lincoln did not want war but wouldn’t let the Union end on his watch.
But he wasn’t a radical. He didn’t want to dispossess the south of its wealth in one sudden swoop. And the EP was nothing more then a political move.
He pushed for a thirteenth amendment and then passed by the union states when the south couldn’t vote on it because he knew the EP was unconstitutional and would be overturned if challenged in court.
 

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