Dear Wally. Yes they are a bit different I find them a nice change from the norm we are so used to & the videos really grabbed my attention . Regards RudyardA whole nother World in this thread, I can't beleive the man hrs. involved....TRULY IMPRESSIVE......Wally
So you bought something from Hall's ! Was it the old man --- a "character" would be generous -- or from John, his gunsmith son?Yes very similar other than to lack of enlarged lower jaw of the cock with the appearance of being perhaps modified to cap lock later idea .& there is no rear sight along 1851 British Minies lines . Nor does yours have the simple built in alter to matchlock provision .But else wise very alike . It came from a gun shop in Chesterfield 18 pounds hardly cheap in the 60s But like an idiot I sold it just to buy a ropey Brown Bess for ten.
OK just recovered the photo & a scetch in my Game register that dates it 17 3 1962 price 18 pounds. I sold for 17 More relavant is the description ' 577 aprox bore flintlock rifle by Latheless maker 40" barrel 57& a 1/4 overall approx 14 pounds wieght . In the white Damascus brl 8 grouve rifling . Records 2&3/4 Drams C&H Number two
patched round ball of 576 ect( Such recording from an 16 year old !. I still keep up to this day incidently .
) The drawing & pic shows held by keys and set back for a B net Very odd all round but exists. Re the rosets looks like you & me could use them if we locate the supply I could send $ US to cover the cost & postage .I also have Walnut NZ grown English W' nut Iv'e no idea what postage might be but I used to round the edges off BC Maple and wrote the address & it reached UK just like that . Its a bit like posting a Coconut no need to wrap it up & a paper template with desired dims would much reduce the wieght I think it was Cyten needed some . Of course the anti gun stuffer upper'es will have kittens but stuff em . Though the curly maple or in Europe its called Sycomore has the nice curly grain and is a common tree .In fact I preffer it for these guns . I once got buetifull Sycomore that a tree trimer had given to a farm & they rived it for fence posts thinking the curl was from the chain saw .So I grabbed it and its made stock's over the years .Nor dose the local hardwood timber yard allways know . Tell you they don't have the sizes you want in the Office. but stroll in the yard & ask since they count planks for clear stuff but since the shapes we want are often within ' shakes 'so from the offices angle are under usefull size . But we can very often get our needs from what they reckoned ill suited sizes . Of course you might get some funny looks lugging a whopping plank on a Corporation bus but Ive done it .anyway . ( Whorst one when when got cow horns from the slaugther house . Bone still inside & put them in a bag & took the bus I mean like you would but despite the cold day the conducter opened the door as the passengers speculated on the sourse of the aroma (I cant smell ) & all the while Ime feeling rightly guilty of their discomfort. So as it was the day after Guy Fawkes day I spotted a still burning embers fire so got off found a big tin and boiled the horns up to knock out the inner bone .. A wee bit off Post but seemed an ammuseing recollection .
Hi RudyardDear Rick & Cyten .The matchlock lever front part had a hole where I presume the Serpantine ' Jaws' might fit into as wanted since you would have to cock or remove the cock lest it got in the way its been 60 odd years since I last saw it so I may have got the fixing details for the separate serpentine 'Head ' which I never had might have been for the Fungus coal type. ? I was 16 not too bad a memory considering . I evidently shot it must see if I recorded the group. I did record the load. What strook me the most was its relief figured Damascus barrel & the c1850s rear sight . & I kicked myself for parting with it but I was just a lad. Dear Cyten OK re wood I looked up the sights WOW & we think WE do re enactments I watched the lot. if couldnt stop the over powering folk singing part . They certainly have style dedication & Skill . Viking also useful . I once made a snap matchlock 'After' Hans Morl for Mr Tromner as he wanted one took it to UK had it proofed but he wouldn't respond to my letters so I took it to the US on my way back & sold it in Ohio to' Smoke & Fire News' Editor . Small World.
Dear Jim .Yes The old man was deffinatly a' Charecter' We where just teens he sometimes was gruff like we where holding him back from going shooting,( Maybe we where He was allways dressed like he was )Or hed'e be nice as pie & very helpfull . His son was fine, I think the rifle was in the shop he had next door." The Bishop of Beetwell street "was our name for him . John had not long come back from travelling & had his Italion wife .Not sure much after as I too went travelling . Georgy Wood who was in Suggs , Old Turner on West bar & The one up South Street , Ropers with his glass case with the bullet hole in it ! where the only others I recall .Turners daughter married the son of the hairdressers next door A complete & utter snob little wonder he ran it into the ground & Him" Chairman of the Gun Trade Asscoiation ".And his qualifications where between his legs . He hated black powder was rude & condesending to customers And kept that long duck gun by Twigg full cocked wonder where it went too? . . Don't care where HE went too .But he decriede he was being "Under sold & ruined by back street RFDs " like me . I had no shop just dealt & made guns. but travelled a lot , The US becoming my principal market . Went to India a few times buying old guns I ended up dealing in Traction Engines bit of a change .Anyway long PM or should be one . Regards Rudyard .So you bought something from Hall's ! Was it the old man --- a "character" would be generous -- or from John, his gunsmith son?
.Nice Goorge musket don't see them much .My rifle going by its 1850e type sight & the use of keys through loops usually a no no for such guns , its flush plate suggests more mid 19th and for whatever thinking made so .But the serpentine 'head' was detachable & lost when I had it . Then theirs that much built up lower jaw as if they where thinking to later go with percussion? .All very curious . Sounds like Jim Hallam knew the shop . I PMed him re the local gunshops he evidenty would have known .Hi Rudyard
OK. This is now making sense to me. It's possible the gun was originally made as a matchlock, with the additional flintlock added later. But more likely, the gun was made with dual ignition. It sounds like your gun was simply missing the serpentine portion that holds the match cord, and was attached to that small hole in the extension bar running back to the rear trigger. But, a picture says a thousand words. LOL Here is a photo of a musket in my collection. Although this musket is from the Coorg Region of Southwestern India, it clearly shows the matchlock/flintlock duel ignition feature. How the match cord reaches the pan of the flintlock is that the head of the serpentine pivots about 45-degrees to the right. Pretty clever. Notice the trigger for the flintlock being off-set to the right.View attachment 147789 View attachment 147793 View attachment 147794 View attachment 147797 View attachment 147798
Hi Rudyard.Nice Goorge musket don't see them much .My rifle going by its 1850e type sight & the use of keys through loops usually a no no for such guns , its flush plate suggests more mid 19th and for whatever thinking made so .But the serpentine 'head' was detachable & lost when I had it . Then theirs that much built up lower jaw as if they where thinking to later go with percussion? .All very curious . Sounds like Jim Hallam knew the shop . I PMed him re the local gunshops he evidenty would have known .
Dear Old Dog. Yes its a Twigg but was flint so unlikley have been caplock given the shop owners understanding . I never got to see it close but it sat on a beam for Donkeys Years Re photos wonderered why not heard I thought you have me E Ile PM it to you.Hello Rudyard, Was that long Twigg (only engraved on the Lock) duck gun the one with a Nocks form breach plug fitted by Isacc Walker from Norwich that is engraved 1805 and later converted to Caplock? If it was, it sits in my Gunroom. 42"x 10b. Weighs about 10lbs. Large trigger guard held on with two large headed screws with holes to tighten with a small tommy bar. Easily removed to fit a breaching rope to use it as a light skiff gun.Was well used on the marsh when I lived on the N. side of the Wash in late 70's thru' to 1990 Still haven't had you address to send old photos.. OLD DOG..
Dear Rick at this distance in time I cant say it was an added or so meant sight but the style is very 1851 Minie type and the flush lock may draw from the Enfield or P51 ? plus the cocks lower jaw so clearly deliberate as if putting it to cap thinking some how with a replaced 'steel' (frizzen) as was done (I once tried to do it but it wasnt a success ) Not on this gun I add . Re staying with the Matchlock Scinner's horse an irregular cavalry of Sowars use M locks shooting from the saddle & presumably reloaded and considered them practical if later they & all such units go to percussion carbines . This is all 'Irregular" North West Frontier stuff . Which questions the usuel condemnation of the utility of match locks. .Shades of . Yes we all today know that matchlocks are impractical on horse .But They didnt know that so did it routinely .!Hi Rudyard
Yes, much agree. The use of barrel keys/wedges (versus pin fastening or barrel bands) and that long range sight make the gun even more of an oddity. The lock, from a distance in that photo with the flat plate does appear to be maybe early second quarter 19th Century. Possibly, the long range rear sight was added later, post 1860 (?) It's all certainly one of the more mysterious guns I've read about. Would be worthy of additional study today. The duel ignition feature shows that even with the introduction of the flintlock, that some of the locals in the East were not willing to completely give up their matchlocks. We do know that many of the locals on the Indian Continent continued to use their Torador matchlocks through at least the mid-19th Century. Progress in some areas of the World moved very slowly.
seems to be a common pattern that the well-armed man has a flintlock rifle, and in the sash, consistently a pair of pistols and a yataghan-type sabre. Which leads me to ask where the photos are from? Much more useful documentation if they have location and date, as best as known.
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