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Ottoman Guns

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Pics to go with Ottoman Guns.
 

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The above pics seem to have disappeared then popped up again ' the rifle is decorated in much the same manner as Ricks fussiest inlay of a brass band holding triangular inserts seemingly held in black pitch . I believe its Persian .What makes it unusual is the dovetailed sight with near 1& a half "pitch elevation too optimistic for ball so perhaps a picket bullet the rifling being about just over a half turn in 28" or so . All thanks to my youngest Daughter Katie who is a positive gem & Ide not have any to show without her . (She told me to put that in & I happily obliged . ) Ime steam age , pre TV, just the wireless. E stuff dos'nt come easy for me. But We are getting there .
Regards Rudyard
 
WOW some interesting innovations on that rifle, plus a view at how folks in other parts of the world approached the same situation.
I noted there is an adjustable, flip up sight, with a peep.
It also looks like not only is the frizzen grooved, BUT the actual striking surface on the frizzen is replaceable? That's rather innovative to say the least.
I am also told that the Ottomans inherited barrel making from their neighbors the Mughals, and that their rifle or smooth bore breech typically has a chamber for the powder, and the ball is actually seated with a tiny gap between it and the powder, so instead of seating the ball against the powder as we do in The West, they took advantage of the pressure spike from the gap to amplify their powder charge and increase the range of their guns and rifles...., or they could use inferior powder and still get very good results.

That's a pretty sophisticated trick to be able to do and not blow your riflemen up, if it's true....

LD
 
Dear L Dave . Pleased you like the Persian rifle The sight is very uncommon the replacable steel face isn't at all rare .Re barrels Have studied numbers of Turko/ Persian barrels they seem most all threaded breach plugged The solid forged breech with the long constricted anti chamber is more India Afghani region
Though some early European' hande gonnes' had just such a breeching , they are useable but seem odd to our notions & a pig to clean. Quite where & when the beautifully flutted barrels with solid forged breech originate is a mystery to me .I think the Mougles came from Persia .& the Khanates might be the earlier mode gave way to the screwed in plug after the forged ones where adopted .We talk of ' Damascus' barrels but I think they where more from the todays Kurdistan region mostly divided by todays Iran, Turkey, & Iraq And loved by neither of them ! ( I had a run in with some Kurds I don't like them either. If I found educated Turks & Irainians fine!.& Ime sure their must be respectable Kurds. Could be I just met some bad apples every society has them ) .
Regards Rudyard
 
Hi Rudyard

That's a great looking Shishana. That rear sight looks like it was a later - but period replacement. And it even looks good on the gun. LOL The original rifling in my barrel was also a very fast twist. Almost looked like a machine screw. LOL I've seen both 7 and 8 groove rifling on these barrels. Don't really understand the reason for such a fast twist (?) Maybe a certain type of bullet vs. ball as you mention. While the Ottomans built these often beautifully decorated guns, they left very little written information about their gun design and shooting characteristics. Which makes it often more difficult to study versus say European arms where good written records exist.
It's my opinion that while there are various Persian styling cues on these guns, the Shishana and Tufuk are genuine Ottoman/Turkish designed guns. Even if many duplicates were made elsewhere in the Balkans, they were probably made under contract with the Ottoman Empire.

Threaded vs, Forged Welded Breech Plugs: The Turks seem to have been the only ones in this area of the world that could properly thread a breech plug and barrel. The barrels on the Indian Torador matchlock muskets have a plug that is forge welded in place. But it was effective. I have a shooter Torador that had that larger than bore size chamber at the breech with the half-inch or so narrow section where the ball was seated opening up to the nominal bore size. Not only did it need to be drilled out with a new liner installed, but a sleeve added to the breech. A tough job. But now it can be loaded like any other smooth bore muzzle loader. There are 2/3 theories for the larger chamber and the narrow section on most of these Northern Indian Torador muskets. One theory mentions that the quality of black powder being made in India was more of a quality from the 15th Century. And could not be compacted too tight, and needed more oxygen to burn reliably. The idea going back to the medieval hand gonne as you mention. But I honestly don't know. I've seen some lesser quality barrels from other Eastern areas that have breech plug threads that look more like pipe threads LOL. But the Turkish barrels are usually done well. Which may also be the reason you occasionally find a higher end European gun sporting a Turkish made barrel.

It's interesting that 100% Persian made guns from this period - especially long guns - are considered rare in collectors circles. We know Persia had large arms centers. But it's a mystery why so few specimens remain of the gun specimens remain.

Anyway, again, you have a great looking Shishana. Thanks for posting the pics.

Rick
 
I think many guns we call Turkish are as likely Persian . I was going with Elgoods book All good stuff will try send pics later today.
Regards Rudyard
 
Hi Rudyard

Here is an original period bandolier to go with your shishane. Holds 8 pre-measured charges of powder. The silver thread stitching is done in a Turkish pattern. The long end of the belt is missing. Well worn. This one looks like it's seen a lot of action.

Rick
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Great stuff! Rudyard, your rear sight looks very similar to the one I posted in the other thread discussing ottoman rifles, i will post it here as well.
Ricky, very cool bandolier! I've not seen something like that outside the caucasian "gaziri"

As to twist rate, my shishane has a 1 in 50 inch twist, surprised to hear how fast your examples are. The muzzle is coned and is 0.010 greater diameter than the bore (0.550 to 0.540). The rifling is very deep at 0.045. Wondering how thick of a patch I should be using
 

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Hi Cyten

That photo of that beautiful shishane - with a European barrel. Like Rudyard mentioned, it's usually the other way around. LOL The European gun with the Turkish barrel.
Glad you like the bandolier. Here's an original Ottoman/Turkish powder measure that is still in good working condition just for grins.

Hmmmmm. That rifling is cut very deep. The thickest pre-cut shooting patches commercially available I believe is .020 Since you have a .54 land to land barrel, you might first try a load of about 60 grains of FFG with a .530 ball and a .020 patch and see what happens. (use FFFG for the pan). If you get a burned patch after shooting you will know the patching is too thin, and will have to search out something thicker. Others on this Forum could lead you to some other sources for material.

Rick
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thanks for the advice, have some old denim that measures out to .020 i will try. Nice powder measure, what are increments, have you figured out? Here are a couple I found in Bulgaria but did not purchase ( they werent for sale )
 

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There is virtually no original WRITTEN information on these guns as respects loading data, ball/bullet used, patching, etc. Even most of the general information on the physical guns themselves has been determined by examination over the many decades. It's one of the reasons the study of these guns is so difficult.

Rick
 
Those look like nice measures. The one looks like it's been polished out. For all I know, these are still being made. LOL I've never sat down and figured out what each mark relates to how many grains of powder. I just used a black marker to mark the spot for 60, 70, grains etc. I'll have to do it one of these days.
These measures adjust by simple friction. You would think they would fall out of place with no set screw. But they don't. They are actually very well made. Would be expensive to reproduce here in the USA.

Rick
 
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