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cyten

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This rather plain rifle has a 31.5 inch damascus barrel with 8 groove rifling in .55 caliber. The bore is actually quite good with no pitting. As I've never seen a sling set up like this on any rifles of this sort, I believe the rings in the stock to be incorrect and probably a modern addition by someone who thought something was missing.

It has some period repairs, such as replaced missing bone/ivory inlays with wood, brass cap covering the tang, and some kind of fabric acting as bedding for the barrel it seems. The ramrod I believe is also not original as it is mostly unfinished wood and fragile. It needs some cracks fixed as well.
 

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cyten

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For comparison, here it is side by side with a Zoli zouave rifle. Note that the zouaves barrel is only 1.5 inches longer.
 

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cyten

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very nice! seems yours is missing the 2nd part of the buttstock. I believe Rickystl posted one of his that was in the same condition and he added a piece of wood to the back.
Have you shot yours?
 

hawkeye2

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No I haven't shot it yet though there's no reason not to as it's in very good shape. There is a piece of leather held to the butt by 3 brass tacks and it's flush with the brass band, almost looks like it was made that way. Were they ever made without the 2nd. piece?
 

cyten

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it is debatable whether some were made with such a short stock or if they are missing the second piece. There is such limited source material on these guns. Out of curiosity, what does your bore measure out to?
 

rickystl

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Hi Cyten. Congratulations. That un-decorated gun looks like it would be a perfect candidate to make into a shooter.
As long as the rifling isn't chipped or gouged it should work fine. Those Ottoman barrels are heavy and thick at the breech. And the thread integrity of the breech plugs are usually well done. I've noticed that the 8 groove rifling is the most common I have encountered on these barrels. Would be interesting to see how accurate the original rifling is. I hope you decide to go ahead with this. What condition is the lock in ?

Slings: Yes, the round rings are likely a 20th Century addition. But they look good on that gun. LOL Originally, the two slots for a leather sling would simply accommodate a single piece of leather entering the left side of the slots, and simply knotted on the right side. What's interesting is the style of knot. Somewhere, I have a photo of an original sling knot. I'll post it here as soon as I locate it.

The brass cap covering the tang is a common feature on many of them. Often, the barrels had very thin linen in the channel that was coated with some kind of wax to act as a form of glass bedding. (Found this on my Albanian gun).

About the shorter butt stocks found on some of these Ottoman long guns: Yes, there has been some debate about this with some collectors. It is my opinion that all the guns with the short butt stocks like Hawkeye's originally had a rear section - that is simply missing. They were held together with one or two large, long nails, and typically with the center band. Also, with the occasional exception, the stocks were made without butt plates. Any brass, iron, leather, etc. on the butt end is likely a 20th Century addition from someone who simply doesn't know.

But it sounds like it would not take much work to restore her to shooting condition. Keep us informed if you do.
By the way, the long guns with rifled barrels are called a Shishana. The same gun with a smooth bore a Tufuk.

Rick
 

hawkeye2

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I'll have to measure it later. I asked about the 2 piece butt as I would have expected to see the splice covered by the brass band however the band on mine only extends beyond the stock by the thickness of the leather piece (which along with the tacks may not be original).
 

cyten

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Ricky, thanks for the info and the encouragement. The rifling and bore are very good and I do plan on making it a shooter, it just has a couple cracks that I think would become worse under recoil. I've cleaned the lock up and it works fine as well. Video of it sparking up
As to the sling knot, I posted some good detailed contemporary photos of the use of both leather knots and rings on your thread of the restored caucasian rifle on vikingsword forum. I will remove the rings and put together a leather knot sling.
Also, I had orginally mic'd the bore at .553 at the muzzle but going just a little deeper it becomes .541. Is it common in these guns to have a "coned" muzzle like that?
 

rickystl

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Hi Cyten

Thanks for the video of the lock in action. The mainsprings are very strong on these Turkish locks. Unlikely to break.
Fixing the cracks would be a good idea of course.
Sling: Yes !! Now I remember. You and Norman posting that in my Thread. I thought that was suce a simple, yet clever way to mount a sling. Thanks for the reminder.
The rifling on my Shishane was in too poor of condition to shoot. So I had Bobby Hoyt drill it out and install a new .54 liner. But I remember the original also had 8 groove rifling and had that slight cone effect also. Thats why its good to measure these original bores down about 3 inches from the muzzle.
So it sounds like your's is a .54 That's good as you can buy ready made .530 or .526 balls to try out.
If you haven't already, you might want to get the correct size cleaning jag and run a patch down the barrel to make sure nothing "grabs" the patch. Other than that, no reason not to shoot it.
One issue you will find difficult shooting these guns is the short LOP. Often they are only 11-12 inches. Very short for today's average size man.

Rick
 

cyten

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Of course as soon as I got it running, another problem arises and now I need to somehow fix the sear :mad: Possibly have to try to weld.
I've quickly fashioned a sling from an old belt I had lying around, and it will do the job for now. I see some ways I could improve but ran out of belt haha. I did thoroughly clean and inspect the barrel and it is great, nice rifling with no pitting or rust really, should be good to go after the stock and sear get fixed.
I dont find the length of pull too uncomfortable and would put it right about the same as shouldering an AK47. Rick, I'm curious, what kind of loads do you use in yours, if you dont mind.

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Rudyard

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I own a nice original with a perfect bore sporting a very small Patila lock much like yours there is useually a divide half way along the butt not aware some are joined. Mine has a curious square hole in the iron butt plate & nice long range sigths presumably added in its working life . Must get you a picture great guns look odd but handle well I hunted with one I made up with old brl & lock
.Regards Rudyard
 

rickystl

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Hi Rudyard: Yes, please take a pic of yours and post. Would be great to see it. The nails I've seen holding the butt stocks on are actually square. Made sort of like a skinny railroad spike. Some have one large one, others have two smaller ones.

Cyten: I like the sling. It's a simple yet effective way to mount a sling. Sorry to hear about the sear on the lock. Darn.
Maybe it's just hanging up for some reason and not allowing it to travel far enough through the hole/slot ? But I've also seen them so worn the sear tip needs a drop of weld and file work.
Here is my Shishane. With the new liner it is now a .54 I settled on 70-grains of FFG with a .530 ball and 10-thousands patch, and FFFG for priming. I need to make a sling for mine. LOL Also, had a new, taller front sight installed.
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Rick
 

Rudyard

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Dear Rick. Yours is very like my original but not relined they near always have that pronounced rifled open muzzle and some relief opening at the breech end mostly in the general state of old barrels perhaps erosion at the breach but Ile check see if my own orig is opened at the breach its shiney and shot very well . Some times the patilla scear blade is worn but the spring could be deficient try a bit of india rubber to see if it cures it . The other rifle clearly shows two piece butt going by the figuring they seemed to like curly Maple or Sycomore or that regions equivalent . The nails are called cut nails chomped from sheet rather than individually made by the sound of it . I may be confusing two rifles here . .What they don't useually feature are barley corn sights oddly they seem to go for low copper ones or maybe there just worn low .
Though non of me is Turkish or Persian I find the design exellent the capucines & the super safe half cock reliable locks & the Sheer Bachar ? humped rear sights give all the elevation you'de ever need once you know the gun & its loads .Add the' Knock your eye out' superb Damascus barrels & it adds up to nothing shy of brilliance .Ide gleefully jump over a huge pile of Hawken's just to get to one of these gems.
No accounting for taste some probably like Hawken's . My own original Persian/ has such facility to ellevate to what must be well over 200 yards and suggests a form of Picket bullet trials ? The Turks had a long tradition of long range archery. The original Sher Bachar" was removed & a very neatly made leaf sight dove tailed in .Very rare to see any dovetails on their barrels as like the Spanish they considererd them sacrosanct & not to be cut into . All good stuff .
Regards Rudyard
 
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rickystl

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Hi Rudyard

Yes, those rear sights don't come natural if you are not familiar with them. I sure wasn't LOL. Seems that the groove at the top was designed for quick pointing, and the lower hole(s) acting like a peep sight for longer range shooting. I haven't shot mine enough to figure this out yet.
As you mention, the Spanish - and Italians - preferred the use of barrel bands, not wanting to make dovetail cuts on their barrels. There is actually quite a number of higher end European guns in collections that sport Turkish made barrels. Their reputation must have been good during the period.
The odd shape of the butt stock actually is very comfortable to shoot. It fits in the cup of the shoulder very well.

Rick
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Rudyard

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Dear Rick .I will try get pics of mine . It has a opened up rifled muzzle but I cant determine any relief at the breech .I have a number of old barrels some with quite extreme relief at muzzle & breech the latter likely errosion but the muzzle must be done by design . Incidently a great many such barrels were brought to the UK in the 70s by Major Noel Corry of Steeple Bumstead . The story was he was after Persian artillery Lugers (Whatever they are !) gathererd in the troubled Kurdistan region .But was obliged to truck out all the confiscated barrels & relic Werndles & Belgium double rifles all in the mix . To subsequently be sold of at a few pounds according to grade . smooth, rifled, good, bad and all well worn and of great antiquity. If some real gems pick your take and a positive boon to the likes of us muzzle loaders of that time .I have used a number up & non blew up yet .Best few quid I ever spent . The open top rear sights carbine 'Tufanchas?'lengths often have the open top sort .' Friendship cheaters' some might describe them are my favourite as they don't obscure the object you seek to hit .Ile try add a few more locks today.
Regards Rudyard
 

cyten

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Rick, thank you for the pictures and the load info. I have fixed the sear with a little bead of weld and filing to shape. I just slugged the barrel and it comes out to exactly .542 so I will try your load once the cracks in the stock are fixed.

Rudyard, would love to see some photos of your rifle as well as the "new" one you made up from an old barrel and lock. Also, thank you for the information regarding Maj. Noel Corry. Very interesting! Always wondered what happened to all the Persian contract Wernd M73/77's
 

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Rudyard

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Dear Cyten . Thank you for your kind comments I will take pics of the' Turkey Gun's Iv'e made Persia got a supply of Bakers too but doubt they lasted long enough to get any via the Galloping Major' s endeavours could be some I never heard he advertised any . Who knows what got where? . I bought a Pottsdam flint lock in Kabul . pre Russian invasion . 1969 If all I fought was cattywompus bed bugs .! They won ! & I had to retire to the flat roof .
Regards Rudyard .
 

toot

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is that a human head that they are displaying??
 

cyten

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Yes I believe so. Photo is from Iranian constitutional revolution
 

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