Oldest gun found in the U S

[mushka]

On my favorite MG board there was a story about the finding of the oldest gun found in this country. The gun is a wall gun called an harkbut, 42" long weighing 40 bs and about a 7 gauge smoothbore. Found recently by a woman with a metal detector after finding a lot of nails and crossbow bolts and other acoutriments buried in the vicinity.

It was carried along on Coronado's trip in about the mid to late 1400's looking for the seven cities of gold. The Spanish had made some kind of fort or settlement in South East Az, somewhere in the Tucson area and had taken to abusing the locals, stealing their food and raping the women and girls and generally abusing everybody. The Sebipuri O' odom indians rebelled and attacked the settlement, killing almost all the Spanish and destroying the settlement. The Spanish abandoned the place and headed south leaving the gun.

 

[chorizo]

harcuebus or arcuebus or hackbut

If a Spanish firearm, harcuebus. Invented by the Spanish in the 15th century.

And don't believe all the revisionist history about the Spanish that you currently read and hear.

 

[tenngun]

1500s, easy to hit the next number
Spain was still very limited in shoulder fired guns at this time. Small cannon and wal guns pretty common. I wonder that this was even a breech loader

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

On my favorite MG board there was a story about the finding of the oldest gun found in this country. The gun is a wall gun called an harkbut, 42" long weighing 40 bs and about a 7 gauge smoothbore. Found recently by a woman with a metal detector after finding a lot of nails and crossbow bolts and other acoutriments buried in the vicinity.

It was carried along on Coronado's trip in about the mid to late 1400's looking for the seven cities of gold. The Spanish had made some kind of fort or settlement in South East Az, somewhere in the Tucson area and had taken to abusing the locals, stealing their food and raping the women and girls and generally abusing everybody. The Sebipuri O' odom indians rebelled and attacked the settlement, killing almost all the Spanish and destroying the settlement. The Spanish abandoned the place and headed south leaving the gun.

Article on it in this months American Rifleman

 

[TobJohn]

1500s, easy to hit the next number
Spain was still very limited in shoulder fired guns at this time. Small cannon and wal guns pretty common. I wonder that this was even a breech loader

They were limited in that they were limited for everyone, but the Spanish were some of the most enthusiastic early adopters of shoulder fired guns. The battle of Cerignola was won by Spanish arquebus fire at the early date of 1503, only 10 years after Columbus landed. Many of the conquistadors gained military experience in the Italian Wars, which is where the gun became a key part of war.

 

[tallPercshooter]

Not to hijack subject, but I grew up in north central Kansas. Our courthouse had a small museum where there was a sword said to have been used by the Coronado expedition. Dug up, no handle slabs, but impressive to a kid.

 

[tenngun]

They were limited in that they were limited for everyone, but the Spanish were some of the most enthusiastic early adopters of shoulder fired guns. The battle of Cerignola was won by Spanish arquebus fire at the early date of 1503, only 10 years after Columbus landed. Many of the conquistadors gained military experience in the Italian Wars, which is where the gun became a key part of war.

Cortez had about 600 men, sixteen on horses and two hundred, 1/3 of his force armed with guns.
Coranado I understand, was closer to twenty percent on his cross plains adventure
Tilly, was the last to really depend on the Spanish formation tercio fifty years later. About 20% musketeers and 80% pikeman. ‘Shooting’ was still primarily crossbowmen
This was when, late 1530s (?), less than twenty years after Cortez
Shoulder fired guns were still the new shinny penny. Military hadn’t really figured out how to use them best yet

 

[TobJohn]

Cortez had about 600 men, sixteen on horses and two hundred, 1/3 of his force armed with guns.
Coranado I understand, was closer to twenty percent on his cross plains adventure
Tilly, was the last to really depend on the Spanish formation tercio fifty years later. About 20% musketeers and 80% pikeman. ‘Shooting’ was still primarily crossbowmen
This was when, late 1530s (?), less than twenty years after Cortez
Shoulder fired guns were still the new shinny penny. Military hadn’t really figured out how to use them best yet

After double checking some books, you are right on the first part, but not necessarily the second part. The Holy Roman Empire banned crossbows in 1517 for military use, while the Spanish conquistadors were still bringing them to the new world. Pavia, in 1525, saw massed arquebus fire defeat cavalry in the open, which is only 5 years after the conquest of the Aztec empire.

Landsknechts were using guns already in the 1480s. At Cerignola, out of a little over 6000 soldiers, 1000-2000 were armed with arquebuses. The following battles of the Italian wars would see the arquebus as the main missile weapons of the Spanish and Imperial armies, not the crossbow. The 1500s is when they were figuring them out, as you say, but that is precisely because they had enough to expermiment. For particularly the Northern Italians and the Southern Germans (the source of many arquebusiers), battle in the first decade of the 1500s show their almost complete replacement of the crossbow. While the crossbow was still in use through a lot of Europe, the battles of Northern Italy fought by the Spanish, and the heavy involvement of South German mercenaries, is why I had mentioned the Spanish enthusiasm for guns.

 

[tenngun]

I would point out banned or not they were heavily used at sea. Fear of setting sails on fire kept crossbows as primary shooters at sea. The Spanish Armada had them by the ton in 1588
Maybe that contributed to lack of them in America. The fact that they were transported weeks at sea, as opposed to marching or at the most a few days on transport in Europe

 

[TobJohn]

I would point out banned or not they were heavily used at sea. Fear of setting sails on fire kept crossbows as primary shooters at sea. The Spanish Armada had them by the ton in 1588
Maybe that contributed to lack of them in America. The fact that they were transported weeks at sea, as opposed to marching or at the most a few days on transport in Europe

That could make sense that they were preferred on boats. I’ve read accounts of boats being a popular testing ground for the arquebus, due to period naval combat resembling siege warfare, but I have not done enough pure naval reading to make any informed claims. The Mary Rose sank with arquebuses and longbows, though the English were notable for sticking to the bow far later than the rest of Europe. If I was on a galley, I would probably feel more comfortable if all my fellow soldiers DIDN’T have burning slow match and gunpowder all over the place lol.

 

[smoothshooter]

On my favorite MG board there was a story about the finding of the oldest gun found in this country. The gun is a wall gun called an harkbut, 42" long weighing 40 bs and about a 7 gauge smoothbore. Found recently by a woman with a metal detector after finding a lot of nails and crossbow bolts and other acoutriments buried in the vicinity.

It was carried along on Coronado's trip in about the mid to late 1400's looking for the seven cities of gold. The Spanish had made some kind of fort or settlement in South East Az, somewhere in the Tucson area and had taken to abusing the locals, stealing their food and raping the women and girls and generally abusing everybody. The Sebipuri O' odom indians rebelled and attacked the settlement, killing almost all the Spanish and destroying the settlement. The Spanish abandoned the place and headed south leaving the gun.
[/QUOTE

Don’t know why, but for centuries the Spaniards seemed to have a mean streak a mile wide.
Maybe it was a genetic predisposition, or societal, but the cruelties they routinely visited upon prisoners and enemy combatants are legendary. Even women and children were not spared.]

 

[BillinOregon]

I had the privilege of meeting and hearing Deni Seymour, the archaeologist, describe her finds at a meeting of the Jornada Research Institute in Ruidoso, NM. Quite a delight to see it get such good play in American Rifleman.

 

[PathfinderNC]

On my favorite MG board there was a story about the finding of the oldest gun found in this country. The gun is a wall gun called an harkbut, 42" long weighing 40 bs and about a 7 gauge smoothbore. Found recently by a woman with a metal detector after finding a lot of nails and crossbow bolts and other acoutriments buried in the vicinity.

It was carried along on Coronado's trip in about the mid to late 1400's looking for the seven cities of gold. The Spanish had made some kind of fort or settlement in South East Az, somewhere in the Tucson area and had taken to abusing the locals, stealing their food and raping the women and girls and generally abusing everybody. The Sebipuri O' odom indians rebelled and attacked the settlement, killing almost all the Spanish and destroying the settlement. The Spanish abandoned the place and headed south leaving the gun.

Would have been nice if there was a photo of the gun…

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Would have been nice if there was a photo of the gun…

I have one but I think it's copywritten...

It's not a shoulder-fired weapon, but more like a "swivel gun".

LD

 

[painter]

I have one but I think it's copywritten...

It's not a shoulder-fired weapon, but more like a "swivel gun".

LD

I believe the Internet Fair Use Act allows a photograph to be displayed.
Fair use permits a party to use a copyrighted work without the copyright owner's permission for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I believe the Internet Fair Use Act allows a photograph to be displayed.
Fair use permits a party to use a copyrighted work without the copyright owner's permission for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.

OK ...

LD

 

[TobJohn]

There are very few guns with surviving stocks, but plenty of barrels around. Based on the little hole in the hook, I assume some sort of stock was attached. Here are some examples of what the general type could look like:

 

[PathfinderNC]

Pretty cool, thanks.