Officers fusil?

[Tatonka]

Here are some photos of one of those guns where you can just feel history in your hands. It is old, in attic condition. It has quality English trade gun parts, as far as I can tell. However, it is stocked in curly maple. The barrel is stamped London. I have seen a similar example at auction penned as a Rev War era officer's fusil. But I have never seen another like it. Some who have examined it believe it to be a chief's grade trade gun, or just a regular trade gun, or even an American stocked gun using surplus English trade parts. This gun does have provenance which came with it, regarding the family it came from and military usage, but no paper documentation to go along with it, so I will not comment on that at this point. The provenance suggests that it was used as an officer's fusil. However, I like to fantasize that it was a native-used gun. I was just wondering what you think? These are not great photos. I used my iphone. If need-be I can take others using a real camera.

Note the marks on the butt stock in the last photo. They really don't look like initials to me, nor do they look like random scratches. Campaign marks?

 

[Stumpkiller]

It was still in use 50 or more years past the Revoultion so it's hard to say when or where those marks in the stock were added.

She sure looks to have some history ground into her. :hatsoff:

 

[Tatonka]

Very true. Guns like this are proof that people recycled their firearms for generations, all-the-while beating the heck out of them. Sometimes I wonder if they were given to children to play with. I can picture civil war era kids running around playing patriots v. redcoats.

 

[rickystl]

WOW!! What a find. This one just reeks with history, even from the photos. I'll let others on this Forum speculate that are better versed with this type of gun. Can't wait to read some of the responses. Maybe you should alert followers of the "Smooth Bore" section to come to this thread and comment. Super interesting piece. Congrats!! :thumbsup: Rick.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'll take a stab at it. Looks like a very well done restock of a post rev war english export grade fowling gun. The engraving on the buttplate leads me to believe the late date. Got a better picture of the lock?

 

[vtbuck223]

Very nice...I'm no expert but at quick glance it reminds me of some of the committee of safety muskets patterned after the Bess and often made with British parts. What is the total length...barrel length...what is the caliber?

 

[Mickc01]

I would bet it's a Ketland. The flower engraving on the trigger gaurd and the leaf like engraving on the butt plate tang are two of their often used designs. I've no doubt it's older that the percussion era and looking at the quality and miltary furniture, could have quit possibly been built for an officer. Albeit a little banged up, you have a very nice peice of history there. It deserves a little love and attention. :hatsoff:

 

[JV Puleo]

Its not an officer's musket... not even close. Its probably a fowler exactly as Mike Brooks says, restocked. English made... etc. I'd even say that it is probably post war (ca. 1795) and might simply have been supplied with a maple stock originally. Timber, hardwoods for furniture and related trades, were the largest export product supplied to Britain in the post-revolutionary era. They bought literally millions of board feet of timber... and not soft woods for building as most of that came from Russia and eastern europe and was less expensive to buy and to transport than American wood was. That said, they preferred walnut. Fancy maple enjoyed a brief period of popularity in the high-end trade but that isn't a high end gun... thus I agree it was stocked here.

If it doesn't have a bayonet lug its not an officer's gun... the same is probably true most of the time for sling swivels. True officer's fuzees are far more rare than is generally thought because just about every middle-grade export musket gets identified as one when someone is trying to sell it.

The business about the little "flower" being a Ketland trademark is a myth. It is simply generic engraving done on the lowest grade of B'ham export gun.

 

[Tatonka]

I believe it was stocked in England. I disagree with a post revolution date. I have seen another exactly like it, though in better condition. For this reason, I don't believe this was just a random re-stocking. I believe it was an Indian trade fusil, which I suppose is the same thing as an Indian trade fowler or Indian trade musket, depending on the expert you are talking to. Very few of them were "high quality" guns, including the "chief grade" guns, though they were meant to look good. Even the often-replicated Williamsburg trade gun with the floral design was a "low quality" gun. I haven't seen any Indian trade guns with a bayonet lug, though they may exist. Furthermore, this is a very, very light gun, and not as long or as heavy as your typical fowler. Given the design of the stock and the hardware I believe it was originally meant for the Indian trade, and I have no doubt that it was a handsome gun when first made. I have no doubt that a curly maple stocked trade gun would have appealed to certain natives. They wanted the dragon sideplate and other trade gun features, but also wanted to emulate the American longrifles.

The gun came from the family of an American Rev War officer - though a low ranking one. My theory is that it was a war trophy taken from a native in battle near Quebec where this officer served. Of course I may be completely wrong. Most experts I have talked to have dated this gun Rev War era rather than the 1790's as was proposed. But who knows.

I appreciate the information, please keep it coming.

 

[flintriflesmith]

The lock would be one of the best features for dating the gun. Post that picture.
Gary

 

[Tatonka]

I likely can't take another photo to post until Tuesday because the gun is at my office. But I will do so and try to use a better camera at that time. Obviously it was converted to percussion so I'm not sure what can be told from the lock, except for the outline of the original.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

............Obviously it was converted to percussion so I'm not sure what can be told from the lock, except for the outline of the original.

Yes, please post a picture, even though it has been converted to percussion, the shape of the lock will tell us a lot about your fowler and it's approximate date.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I believe it was stocked in England. I disagree with a post revolution date. I have seen another exactly like it, though in better condition. For this reason, I don't believe this was just a random re-stocking. I believe it was an Indian trade fusil, which I suppose is the same thing as an Indian trade fowler or Indian trade musket, depending on the expert you are talking to. Very few of them were "high quality" guns, including the "chief grade" guns, though they were meant to look good. Even the often-replicated Williamsburg trade gun with the floral design was a "low quality" gun. I haven't seen any Indian trade guns with a bayonet lug, though they may exist. Furthermore, this is a very, very light gun, and not as long or as heavy as your typical fowler. Given the design of the stock and the hardware I believe it was originally meant for the Indian trade, and I have no doubt that it was a handsome gun when first made. I have no doubt that a curly maple stocked trade gun would have appealed to certain natives. They wanted the dragon sideplate and other trade gun features, but also wanted to emulate the American longrifles.

The gun came from the family of an American Rev War officer - though a low ranking one. My theory is that it was a war trophy taken from a native in battle near Quebec where this officer served. Of course I may be completely wrong. Most experts I have talked to have dated this gun Rev War era rather than the 1790's as was proposed. But who knows.

I appreciate the information, please keep it coming.

Well, if you don't care for the opinions given, some by rather knowledgeable individuals, why did you ask? Seemsyou had it all figured out anyway.
If you want to know if it's restocked, take it apart and look for old pin holes in the trigger guard tab and RR pipes.

 

[ericb]

While I am not Expert enough to offer a a solid appraisal, there are several things I notice about this Piece which I find of interest, and which may offer some clues to those more qualified than me.

(1) The Wood - Curly Maple - interesting

(2) Wood shrinkage would seem to indicate it is quite old

(3) The Wrist Inlay

(4) The Sideplate - Not necessarily Trade Gun Style? Continental?

(5) There appears to be Cast-Off in the Stock

(6) Finial on Trigger Guard is almost a dead-ringer of one on a mid 18th Century Jaeger Rifle that Geman Gunsmith I used to work with Copied and built from scratch - everything but the barrel, which we shaped Octagon to Round and swamped - my introduction to Draw Filing (the German Milling machine).

It looks old, custom, and quite well made to me, although not particularly ornate. It is certainly a little bit worse for wear.

Won't venture beyond that, but a very interesting piece.

These are just Campfire Musings - anxious to see what others come up with, in addition to comments already posted...

Eric

ps - I agree that close-up of Lockplate would be interesting.

 

[Mickc01]

Where's your documentaion showing that the flower tradmark for Ketland is a myth? Not trying to be argumentative but your post, as it stands, is as much of an accertion as mine and I'd like to learn more on the subject.

Also, I do agree that a close-up of the lockplate would be a big help. It's fairly easy to see in the angled photo that the holes for the frizzen spring appear to be there so its likely the original plate.

 

[JV Puleo]

No it isn't. Buy the next edition of Man at Arms magazine... Its too much trouble to go into the details here. Or you can wait a year or so for my book on the Ketlands and the Anglo-American arms trade.

Short answer... the Ketlands didn't make the gun. They were Birmingham merchant gunmakers. All of their export guns, which is almost everything Americans commonly see, were made in the B'ham trade. There is not a shred of proof that they even had a "trademark"... in fact, the idea wasn't even thought of until the 1840s, long after they were out of business. Its just the opposite, when you see that little mark it probably means the Ketlands didn't sell the gun. They were quite proud of their name and made an effort to protect it.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Where's your documentaion showing that the flower tradmark for Ketland is a myth? Not trying to be argumentative but your post, as it stands, is as much of an accertion as mine and I'd like to learn more on the subject.

I am not Joe Puleo as I imagine he is busy writing his book on the Ketland gun manufacturing history.

The documentation about the flower being a trademark can be found by observing the like decoration of other lower end provincial guns of the period with names other than Ketland on them. I have one here that is not a Ketland. This was just a popular motif of the time that was quick and easy. They probably all came out of the same Birmingham specialty shop for a variety of setters up and retailers. One of those prolific companies to use them was Ketland.
:thumbsup:


I am right along with Mr. Puleo and Mr. Brooks on what this gun is all about.
Nice piece!! :thumbsup:

 

[ericb]

Innocent Question - what's the story on English Shops using Curly Maple?

I find this Gun most intriguing...

E

 

[Mike Brooks]

Innocent Question - what's the story on English Shops using Curly Maple?

I find this Gun most intriguing...

E

I would say it would be highly unusual but not impossible. JVP may have more to say on the subject.
If this was stocked in england I would expect to see walnut or probably beech on a gun of this quality.
BYT. The side plate is a very common english style. The trigger guard is also english and most commonly associatwed with low end export guns of the 1790's and after.
There were several areas where I would suspect this could have been restocked. Philedelphia and or new York. As both of these areas were familiar with english style and had the craftsmen there to do a quality restock. This was not redone by some back wooods smitty.

 

[tg]

A very nice original gun to sudy and learn from and there are some very learned folks here trying to help add to our uderstanding about such guns at no charge, I for one am going to soak up as much as I can, maybe a question or two later but likley no arguements.