Offhand Practice

[coloradoclyde]

In my opinion reading about how to shoot is pretty much useless. If you understand what you're reading then you already know it. If not, then you have not learned it yet.

The best thing one can do is practice, practice, practice. Shoot targets at one distance that increasingly get smaller and shoot a single size target at increasing distances.

You should also shoot a "cold shot" target, every time you practice. At the beginning of your practice session shoot 1 round, your first shot of the day at a target....Take that target down and save it for the next session....then repeat.

 

[Col. Batguano]

That is a particularly valuable thing to do when the gun is to be shot cold, like in a hunting situation. Thanks for mentioning it.

Formal target shooting matches where you shoot strings of 10-20 rounds is different. I shoot precision 3-P matches with .22's, and we routinely just disregard where our first few rounds land because a cold barrel is going to place rounds differently than a warmed up one.

 

[Artificer]

In my opinion, practice without knowing the fundamentals of shooting can just reinforce or create bad habits or cause folks to blame their gun instead of realizing what they did wrong personally.

I agree that when one learns the fundamentals of shooting and applies them, then both dry firing and actual shooting is very valuable to improving one's skills.

I definitely agree about the first shot of the day out of a cold barrel should be fired on a blank target and then pulled and kept. Information such as time, date, amount of sunlight, environmental conditions, wind speed and direction, humidity, temperature, and where one aimed and called the shot should also be written on the target for future reference.

I would also suggest shooting that first "one shot" target at different ranges - to see where the first round hits out of a cold barrel - just like it would be in hunting conditions.

Gus

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

In my opinion reading about how to shoot is pretty much useless. If you understand what you're reading then you already know it. If not, then you have not learned it yet.

Wow ... just wow, whoa ... stunned into silence :idunno: . So, for a contrary opinion.

In my opinion, practice without knowing the fundamentals of shooting can reinforce or create bad habits or cause folks to blame their gun instead of realizing what they did wrong personally.

YES - exactly! And that is what I was taught in specific training to be a ”˜certified instructor’ in both archery and rifle (high power & Schuetzen) shooting disciplines.

BEST tip for practice? Practice with a purpose ... 1st clean bore shot, working on your follow through, not holding so long, or calling your shot, etc. Anything else is fun, but ”˜can’ lead to bad habits that are tough to cure.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Wow ... just wow, whoa ... stunned into silence :idunno: . So, for a contrary opinion.
.

Articifer's opinion isn't contrary.....We're just saying the same thing in different ways.

I agree with what he said.....Fundamentals are important. Take swimming for example, you need to learn to float before you can swim....

 

[Elkeater]

Long tongue, at it again.

 

[longcruise]

Here is a link to an interesting you tube video. One little tiny section of it addresses magnum caps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsuYy8kTcYQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[dsayer]

Here is a link to an interesting you tube video. One little tiny section of it addresses magnum caps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsuYy8kTcYQ&feature=youtu.be[/quote]

Interesting but not my personal experience. I was at the range on Tuesday morning (sighting in at 50 yards) and brought both standard and magnum caps. Ignition was noticably faster with the magnum caps. I assume these little buggers have a long shelf life, but the tin of standard caps had been bouncing around in my box for probably half a decade. :idunno:

 

[Scipio]

Forgot a couple of more important reasons for calling shots.

For a new shooter, calling shots allows them to train their eyes to see good, or poor, sight picture.

For a bit more experienced shooter, calling shots allows them to determine if their zero is good or needs adjustment.

For experienced shooters, calling shots allows them to very quickly troubleshoot a performance issue such as trigger control, involuntary arm movement, etc.

For a coach, a shooter whose shot calls are reasonably correct means the shooter is at least keeping his or her eyes focused on the sight picture through the entire shot. Calling shots is about the only way a shooter can communicate a shot with a coach.

Just a word of caution though. Even the top end shooters in the world have bad calls. If a new shooter is able to call 70% of his shots to a clock direction, not even a distance but just a clock direction, the shooter is doing pretty good.

If a guy is calling his shots to within a minute, you are looking at someone who is probably a very, very, good marksman.

As for keeping data books or cold bore stuff. I don't particularly buy into the value other than to determine if the shooter has a decent zero and he and his equipment are performing to a standard.

New shooters who spend their time 'score booking' are not helping themselves because their attention is being distracted from their shooting towards a score book. Seen it dozens of times and not once has a new shooter keeping a score book done him any service at all. Keep their attention focused on their shooting and they will shoot better.

Time comes when they keep a score book but by then they know what they want to record and why. Also, by then they are confident enough in their ability to handle a formal firing line that they can take on the additional actions involved in keeping a score book.

Just my experience guys. If I were coaching any one of you, and I thought it necessary to record your shots and calls, I would keep the score book for you. Most of the time I will keep the shot record and show it to you when I think you need to adjust zero or your position.

Coaching is kind of complicated and holistic. Not the easiest thing to do but pretty satisfying if you can get a shooter to be able to troubleshoot his own performance with confidence.

Scipio

 

[Kansas Jake]

In my opinion reading about how to shoot is pretty much useless. If you understand what you're reading then you already know it. If not, then you have not learned it yet.

The best thing one can do is practice, practice, practice. Shoot targets at one distance that increasingly get smaller and shoot a single size target at increasing distances.

You should also shoot a "cold shot" target, every time you practice. At the beginning of your practice session shoot 1 round, your first shot of the day at a target....Take that target down and save it for the next session....then repeat.

I saved a target that I shot the first round into at 50 meters a year ago with a pawn shop purchased Ardesa Hawken. It cut out the center x. I almost just put the gun away and said that's it, I can't do any better.
:grin:

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Daniel Webster?

 

[Artificer]

As for keeping data books or cold bore stuff. I don't particularly buy into the value other than to determine if the shooter has a decent zero and he and his equipment are performing to a standard.

New shooters who spend their time 'score booking' are not helping themselves because their attention is being distracted from their shooting towards a score book. Seen it dozens of times and not once has a new shooter keeping a score book done him any service at all. Keep their attention focused on their shooting and they will shoot better.

Time comes when they keep a score book but by then they know what they want to record and why. Also, by then they are confident enough in their ability to handle a formal firing line that they can take on the additional actions involved in keeping a score book.

Scipio

Well, I have to politely, but seriously disagree on the value of using data books and keeping cold shot targets.

Using data books is particularly valuable to new shooters to get them to concentrate on their sights and follow through as well as "self diagnose" some problems they are having. This particularly when they don't have a shooting coach, but also when they have a shooting coach because this does help them communicate with their coach when problems arrive as you mentioned. It also helps a coach more quickly analyze what a shooter is doing wrong.

One Shot Targets from a cold barrel and in different weather and times of the year are particularly valuable for hunting. Depending on where one lives and the difference in outside temperatures/humidity between shooting in the middle of summer vs the middle of winter or during hunting season - can cause some serious differences in the point of impact with the same point of aim. This not only because how the environment affects the barrel and powder, which is the main reason, but also because one wears heavier clothing in hunting season in many states. That will often cause the person to shoulder the rifle differently and that means they are usually looking at the sights differently, which will through off the Point of Impact.

When one has a data book or cold shot targets at different ranges and at different weather conditions and times of the year (but at least during hunting season) - will allow a person to get that first round well centered on the target out of a cold barrel when hunting or other types of shooting.

Gus

 

[Scipio]

Gus:

If a guy's rifle will not hold a group because of barrel temp, he needs to buy a barrel that will. Easiest point you can make is the one you buy.

No, won't get into it about score books. Used them, thought they were the gospel, and saw that they negatively impacted performance until a guy got to the NRA Expert or Master level.

Am going to coach a guy starting Monday. Have seen him perform and not so hot. Have no preconceived notions about his marksmanship other than something is happening between him seeing a sight picture and pulling the trigger. First session is indoors using a simulator and maybe a air rifle. Then two sessions live. By then he ought to be decently prepared to train himself.

I will probably keep a coaches score sheet on him when he shoots live. Calling shots is absolutely vital for success in coaching him and for his future successes.

Scipio

 

[coloradoclyde]

First thing I teach a new shooter is push-ups!

 

[Scipio]

You mean they don't already know how to do a push up?

 

[Artificer]

Gus:

If a guy's rifle will not hold a group because of barrel temp, he needs to buy a barrel that will. Easiest point you can make is the one you buy.

Even the heaviest barrel offhand or hunting rifles will be effected by exposure to the sunlight and heat on the first round vs following rounds.

No, won't get into it about score books. Used them, thought they were the gospel, and saw that they negatively impacted performance until a guy got to the NRA Expert or Master level.

Am going to coach a guy starting Monday. Have seen him perform and not so hot. Have no preconceived notions about his marksmanship other than something is happening between him seeing a sight picture and pulling the trigger. First session is indoors using a simulator and maybe a air rifle. Then two sessions live. By then he ought to be decently prepared to train himself.

I will probably keep a coaches score sheet on him when he shoots live. Calling shots is absolutely vital for success in coaching him and for his future successes.

Scipio

My experience with data books is quite contrary to yours. This beginning with using them as and for Marine Recruits in Boot Camp (the majority by the late 1980's had never fired even a BB gun when they came to Boot Camp) and at Post and Station Teams and of course when I joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team as the Junior Armorer in the Spring of 1975 as a 21 year old Sergeant.

I had "walked many a requalification rifle line" as a standard Armorer even before I became a NM Armorer and the Marines who used their Data Books well were always the better/best shots. This even with coaches assigned to every two shooters on the line at most when there wasn't enough coaches for one on one. Larger bases normally had one coach per shooter.

I continued to use a data book every year on the range up to and including when I was the 8th Marine to tie the All Time Requalification Record at Quantico with a score of 249 out of 250 in 1988. That record still stands today, though someday someone is bound to shoot a perfect 250.

In the spring of 1975 when I had first joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team, I was overwhelmingly fortunate to have a coach teach me how to really sight in my civilian hunting rifle for hunting. He made me use a data book and I was later extremely glad he did, though I had already learned the value of using data books for new/newer shooters and from there on out. Funny thing was I had not heard of my Coach when he began training me, as I was just so young and had only been in the Corps about 3 1/2 years at that time. He was a Staff Sergeant at the time and his name was Carlos Hathcock. He always had me shoot a single round out of an extremely clean barrel at different ranges and especially in different temperature conditions. That ensured the first round would be on target after checking the data book for my dope in those conditions.

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

You mean they don't already know how to do a push up?

Knowing and doing are two different things.

Most if not all new shooters lack sufficient upper body strength to hold a rifle steady and strong pectoral, deltoid and other shoulder muscles to withstand repeated recoil.

 

[Scipio]

Sorry CC but you couldn't be more wrong -- at least in today's terms. Have seen enough JR female shooters doing quite well with heavy competitive AR-15's to know that such a statement is simply wrong. Was even wrong in the day of the M-1 and M-14.

Having upper body strength is important in any sport but it is not as important in competitive shooting. Being in above average overall physical condition is probably the best choice for shooting.

And that is from a die hard weight lifter for the last forty plus years. Who must now do his training!

Scipio

 

[coloradoclyde]

Sorry CC but you couldn't be more wrong -- at least in today's terms. Have seen enough JR female shooters doing quite well with heavy competitive AR-15's to know that such a statement is simply wrong. Was even wrong in the day of the M-1 and M-14.

Having upper body strength is important in any sport but it is not as important in competitive shooting. Being in above average overall physical condition is probably the best choice for shooting.

And that is from a die hard weight lifter for the last forty plus years. Who must now do his training!

Scipio

I think you completely misunderstood my post.
I've never seen an AR15 with a 43 inch long barrel, nor have I seen one have to be loaded by the muzzle. loading is another area where young shooters and newbies struggle with strength.

I'm not saying they need to be body builders....

I'm talking day one ....not seasoned shooters. Sure, some have enough strength but most need some conditioning.

Also gas operated semi-automatics have the least recoil of any weapon type...comparing them to muzzleloaders is like apples and tomatoes.

 

[apachesx2]

From shooting competition I've always been taught using bone to bone contact is alway more accurate than using muscle which is always the least and last method to use to shoot. That is why gun fit, balance, natural point of aim and consistency is so important because any of those out of whack it takes more muscle to compensate which gets you into trouble. Generally the one who consistently wins matches uses less muscle however all things equal the one with developed and muscle control has the edge over someone who is lacking to include breathing... When I talk to coaches they generally prefer to teach women on the team because they have less bad habits because they had less experience at a younger age and are more open to learning the fundamentals... Not challenging the previous points but adding my 2 cents... :hmm: