Observations at the NMLRA fall championships

[tecum-tha]

I have been to the National Championship Shoot this fall again and stayed for the annual membership meeting.
About 80 people attended out of possibly at least 800 on the premises :idunno: . The biggest point adressed was membership numbers and their decline.
My resulting remarks: The Association lost roughly about 12000 members in the last 12-15 years. The median age of the Association is way to high. Especially the living history area will probably die out in the next few years, if we can't adjust our communication procedures to address more young people. And with the young people I don't mean the 6-16 year olds, but the 20,30 or 40 somethings. These people have the time and necessary funding on hand to keep the Association alive, before the now 6-16 year olds can take their share.
My question is:
Are you a member of the NMLRA?
Yes, or no? If no, please tell in a short statement why not.

I also listed 3 pointers down here, please tell me your opinion about it.
A few pointers about what I think would enhance participation of young people in our sport:

1.) Interactive website interlinked with a Youtube channel with professional educational videos.

2.) New historical action matches, resembling tactical scenarios from the eastern or western frontier 1750-1840. The goal is to get the reenactors back to the place where they can proove their skills with live ammunition and to show the young generation that there is action beyond the video game. Basically "cowboy" action shooting for an earlier timeframe. But we have to show them and instruct them how.

3.) Mentor program: If every member can mentor at least 1 or 2 people in muzzleloading, and even with a 50% success rate, we would have a much greater potential membership pool.

4.) Membership without printed monthly magazine, but with access to online edition, at a reduced rate.

To adress point 1. I would like to get in contact with people here on the forum, who like to do video work and use a semi-professional or professional HD video camera. I know those people are out there, we just have to bring them together to get the ball rolling.

To the moderators: If this post was off-topic, please let me know and put into correct sub-forum.
Thanks for letting me vent!

 

[123.DieselBenz]

I've been thinking of joining . . . just never got to their website . . . did it tonight!

Thank you for the nudge I needed!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Was for years (#43105). Never been to Friendship and really don't follow the pages of scores and don't get anything out of the range or nationals. Last I knew the NMLRA didn't have a legislative representation so they weren't pursuing politics to sway it our way. About the time they came up with the Muzzleloading Afield category and the hero images were of scoped in-lines I lost most interest and all respect.

When I lost my job in 2000 it wasn't too difficult a decision to let my dues lapse. Have not re-upped.

 

[necchi]

My experiance is almost a duplicate of Stumpkiller, a past member.
*Never been to Freindship, no desire too.
*Not only do they not have a legislative goal, they stricly endorse NOT having one.
*While supporting in-lines has merit as it brings in new shooters, it's NOT something I can endorse.

I'll add the local Territorial is dominated by longtime members and shooters. They're freindly, amoungst themselves, new shooters are not made to feel welcome and even mocked behind their back. I forked out $$ for RO certification and did my duty for them.
Let's just say the NMLRA isn't my cup of tea, I enjoy the somewhat more primitive settings and commrodery of the local vous' circut

 

[Zonie]

Folks should realize the NMLRA doesn't have "Legislative Representation" because it is a Non-Profit (read tax exempt) organization.

For that matter, the National Rifle Association is also a Non-Profit organization and they technically don't have "legislative Representation" either.

The NRA's legislative branch is a separate, stand alone taxable organization. At least it was the last time I looked.

These taxable lobbies cost a fortune and there is no way the NMLRA could find the dollars to support one.

Yes, I am a member of the NMLRA because lobby or no lobby they are the only old style large group that really supports muzzleloading on a National level.

Yes, they tend to think the world revolves around Friendship and the Indiana area and they should work to improve that.

As for In-L****'s in their magazine, Muzzle Blasts, they seem to have gotten the message sent by the number of people who dropped out and there are almost no ad's or mention of them except in the Hunting section. IMO, they would be way ahead if they replaced Al Raychard who has prooven time and time again that likes that type of gun.

As for allowing those rifles in competition, they are only allowed to shoot against themselves and, like them or not they are a muzzleloading gun.

They also should work on replacing the Bevel Brothers which was a monthly article which answered shooting questions, usually by testing the question themselves or by getting a true expert to tell the readers about it.

The Bevel Brothers retired a few months ago and they are greatly missed.

 

[jethro224]

Yes, I am a member.

I was at the National Championship Shoot this fall but did not attend the membership meeting. As a matter of fact I have never attended a membership meeting and I suppose I should make it a point to do so. But I go to shoot and have fun not for politics and preaching. :idunno:
That said, I do tell others about the NMLRA and have even got a couple of new members to join.

Your pointers;

1) The website has improved quite a bit since I have been a member but there is much more room for more improvements. Faster updates would be nice. Youtube videos... maybe. :idunno:

2) New historical action matches? Sounds fun! Like what?
The Fort Greenville Match is a lot of fun. Do you mean more stuff like that? Or something with even more "action"?
Where would these matches take place? Would they interfere with established matches?
For example, the new running boar match. Sounded like a good idea at first, but then it ended up being poorly executed. It isn't in the best location and interferes with the woodswalk which is a proven moneymaker, and may end up being a safety issue due to how it is pointed toward town.

3) Mentor program? Please elaborate. What exactly do you mean? An hour, day, week??? At Friendship or at home? Where do you expect to get all those people who need/want a mentor? I'm always willing to answer questions or show a newbie how to load and shoot my guns. Have done just that several times.

4) Sounds like a good idea. Lots of folks don't have the cash to spare for a full membership. Another idea might be a reduced membership rate for those who never plan to attend a shoot or visit Friendship. Lots of folks live too far away and simply don't have the time or money to travel. Others have no interest in competitive shooting but might still enjoy the magazine or be willing to support the organization if it didn't cost so much to be a member when they know they will never go to Friendship.

As to the others comments;

The way I understand it the NMLRA does represent the cause they just don't do the lobbying. Just the facts, none of the politics. Maybe I'm wrong.

Inlines in the magazine... well those are the articles that get sent in and they gotta print something. Write a traditional hunting story with pictures and submit it. Lately there have been more hunting articles with traditional weapons. :thumbsup: I pretty much ignore the ads in any magazine. :blah:
Inlines in the matches... they have their own matches. Don't shoot in 'em. There are no inlines on the primitive range at all.
The one time I shot the Hunters woodswalk match I took my open-sighted caplock GPR, and did it with 3 inline guys with scopes AND BEAT 'EM! We got along fine. They were looking mighty hard at my traditional caplock by the time it was over. Convert 'em! Steer 'em straight, don't turn 'em away! Quitcherbellyachin and show 'em how it's really supposed to be done.

I have never been to a Territorial Match, or even to Minnesota for that matter, but necchi, I bet ya I could show up there with a T/C or GPR and leave there with some new friends. Folks are folks everywhere ya go and ya gotta put forth just a little effort before the regulars are gonna welcome you in. I bet you'd enjoy the primitive camp at Friendship too unless you showed up with a chip on your shoulder. (It would be a little bit more of a primitive setting tho without them dang lights shinin' up from the modern line side of the road and that dang loud singin' guy down at the flea market. :surrender: )

 

[PaulN/KS]

Been a member for quite a few years but never been to Friendship and doubt if I ever will be...

As far as getting folks interested in our hobby, I'll be spending 3 days at Lecompton,Ks. demonstrating some of the skills,and such,to local school kids starting tomorrow. Our group has been doing this for about 7 years now and, while a lot of work(plus burning vacation time) we enjoy it and the kids, and visitors, seem to like it too.
We demonstrate firestarting, camp life, hawk and knife throwing,archery and bow making and other related activities.
Unfortunatly, our group has gotten smaller these due to their passing on... that "age" issue mentioned above.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I have been a member for most of the past 35 years. Never been to friendship and would like to go.

Been to the Eastern rend. over a dozen times and even out to the old High Plains rend once.

I appreciate what the NMLRA does. I am not much into the latest re-puke of old technologies (in-lines) But I am a bit more interested in target shooting than re enacting.

I too would like to see more done to recruit new members to muzzleloading, not necessarily to the org., but that would be nice too.

Buckskinners don't do nearly as much to overtly recruit as they could. Something modeled a bit like the appleseed project would be good. An encampment-open house with mentored shooting for any interested person. get the scouts, etc out for a day, not just with emphasis on shooting, but for varied age appropriate frontier skills. And that could actually fit into the scouting merit badge system as well.

 

[tecum-tha]

Yes, more and other scenario matches like the Fort Greenville shoot (which is only done in spring) and on more realistic targets (no still targets). The idea is to practice real life skills from the 1730-1840 without the "X-targets".
This year, Fort Greenville shoot was at a small gong about 85-90 yards out. Although the longrifles with target loads (tight patch and ball) were doing great (and the Ferguson rifle as well), they had problems reloading after about shot No.3. My setup was more made for a man-sized target (like the year before), but it is hard to keep a 6" circle at this distance with a comparable loose patch and ball combination in a stressful competition situation and completely inappropriate for smoothbore shooters(about 4 out of 5 guns on the frontier?) In order to get good reenactors back, we need to offer something for them,I.M.H.O.

 

[PaulN/KS]

zimmer,
That's just the sort of thing our club does out here...Scouts, public demos and other stuff in the local community.
4H also has muzzleloaders as part of the shooting Sports program.

 

I've got to agree with Zonie, Paul, Jethre and Zimmer. I've been a memebr for 30+ years, get to Friendship once in a while and shoot at our local club. I have to question anyone who comes away from any club shoot without having made a new friend, or two, unless they just stayed at their end of the bench. The NMLRA is where it is at for our shooting needs and needs to be supported. Our club has been involved with the Boy Scouts, Wild Turkey Federation and others regarding mentoring youth and it has brought in new people over the years. If you want something back, you have to give forward.
Mark

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have been an NMLRA member since 1970. Although I do have to admit, I dropped out for several years at one time. I used to live near Friendship and at the big shoots I attended many annual meetings.
I was there in the '70s what I believe was the beginning of the decline.
Many children used to attend and participate. At one meeting many of the 'old' members voted to change shoot dates for the explicit purpose of preventing young people from attending. It was a sad day. (BTW, I am now "old" and would love to see young people participate and be the next generation.)
Another issue that proved unpopular, but which to this day I support, was to deny campers and visitors from having dogs on the premises. This came about when a five year old girl (I was there) had her face almost completely torn off by a "friendly" dog. After that dogs were prohibited and a lot of people didn't like that as they only traveled with their pets.
The later hiring of an arrogant 'my way or the highway' too powerful executive director was a strong deterrent to even wanting to have anything to do with the NMLRA. He virtually sucked the fun out of the organization.
He, and others, also violated (IMHO) the very essence of promoting traditional muzzle loading by embracing the modern-style inline so-called muzzle loaders and allowing advertising in Muzzle Blasts of those and even modern guns.
Today there are far more breech loading rifle matches held at Friendship than muzzle loading.
I'm sure Red Farris is turning over in his grave.
The magazine, Muzzle Blasts, has not kept up with the times or reader interests. It is still basically the same magazine it was 50 years ago. Except for the modern gun advertising it is same old, same old. Experts in the publishing field know what needs to be done to maintain reader interest. MB ain't doin' it.
The leadership is geo-centric and that leaves membership feeling like it is being ignored. In our electronic age, that needs to change big time and pronto.
Some factors, like high travel costs and flooding are not the fault of the organization and are partially to blame for declining membership.
There is more but most of you don't have time to read it all.
I will add, the Field Rep. program is failing. Some reps are great and very responsive. But many are not and I have to wonder why they want to be reps at all. My club, which is located in Missouri (I live just south of the Arkansas-MO border) has tried numerous times to just get our rep to visit us without success. (BTW, I am a former rep and started 16 charter clubs in Arkansas during my tenure.)
In fairness, the Territorial matches were started in an attempt to reach out to those who could not travel to Friendship. I was a shoot director for one very successful shoot and NMLRA did not interfere. At the same time, they did not help. My current club cannot get approval for a Terr. match even though we have a nice range and very ample space for campers.
There is, and long has been, an element of NMLRA leadership and long time influential members who want NMLRA to become part of the NRA. My gut is telling me there is a deliberate movement to allow NMLRA to deteriorate to the point where such a take-over will be inevitable.
I'll quit now. Let the arrows fly.

 

[Jason Lewis]

i'm a member and proud of it. i attend both the long range shoots at camp atterbury and go to friendship in both the fall and spring. it's a wonderful organisation IMO. i delayed becoming a member when i was in my early 20's because i was a broke college kid. but i am an ardent supporter. for those of you who have never been to friendship, and i'm sure you've heard this a million times, you really are missing out on a very good time. good comradery, good shooting opportunities, and lots and lots to see and learn.

on the first point, i love the idea of historical "action matches" perhaps they could fuse with some of the cowboy type of shooting. for just an example and NOT HC, just an example, maybe recreate the scene in the "patriot" when martin shoots down the british soldiers on the road while rescueing gabriel. the match could be a timed match with the course of fire consisting of starting out hiding behind a tree then shooting red figure type targets in numerical order. while having to dodge behind other stations (trees) and shoot from cover. this way accuracy and time are both factors to a good score. have two matches, one for traditional garb and one for target shooters. make the match open to smoothbore and rifle, flint only.

on the second point about membership, yes the organisation is getting older, but i believe a major problem we face is a poor lay person perception about muzzleloading in general. we've all experienced it at one time or another, the hunters who tell us our flintlocks won't shoot, the modern shooters who think we're ridiculous for wanting to shoot such "silly" guns. the major misconceptions that it takes forever to reload our guns. the list can go on ad nauseum.
but, i don't know how to solve that problem.

this is for rifleman, there are way more muzzleloading matches then BPCR matches at the national shoots, i was there a couple of weeks ago and i don't remember seeing any cartridge shooters on the line.

 

[msuspartan]

As for an insight to the NMLRA, I agree with much of what is said. Bob Voegle (current pres.) and I have had quite a few conversations on many of these points made.

1. As to a 'legal' or 'political branch, it is way too expensive for them to even consider. Look at what the NRA-ILA does on a daily basis in the political field. And they still ask for donations at 2-3 million membership.

2. The membership here in Indiana is stronger than anywhere else but then again it is the strongest with Kentucky, Michigan and Ohio because they surround Friendship.

3. The NMLRA does not want to be directly involved with State groups as to let them 'shine' for themselves. Bob thinks that supporting them is a good thing but not to seem like the NMLRA is running the groups. He has offered any support he can.

4. My point....I like the ideas of what is being proposed. So why are not more of you emailing Bob and telling him these things? Inlines are here to stay (if it gets them involved, GREAT, then convert them!! :hmm: )

5. I have been trying to get people here in Indiana to form an Indiana State BP orginization. You know what I get....listen....listen....crickets....... :surrender:

6. I spent 20 years in a medieval recreation group and families were highly encouraged. Could not fight in armor until you were 18 but never seemed a lack for young people to start then. So why in re-enacting AND shooting?? Because no one includes their spouses and kids. (at least in the Mid-west) No clothes for kids, no events for kids, no classes on how to do/make/craft things/skills, because no involvment!!!!

In the medieval group we had classes on Dancing, Courtly behaviour, sewing, armour making, pottery, cooking, how to make your persona, etc, etc, etc. You name it there was a class for it.
Have an event with shooting, classes (horn making, scrim, shooting for womenfolk, persona, history, etc, etc) games/kids classes and on and on and on. Show how it was done AND why!

Make history FUN..not just shooting.

So why no new people coming in to our sport, (except hunting) NO INVOLVEMENT!

And blaming inlines is like blaming a car for taking away the horse. Prove to them the advantages.

I want to start a Northwest Territory (Indiana) Rifle and Pistol Championships and have had the same reception, nothing.....so you are right, we need involvement and young ones too. My son will shoot when older so we will see.

(gets off of soapbox and lets next person to have their rant)

BTW, Zonie (and others), good points as usual!

Cheers, DonK

 

[Rifleman1776]

this is for rifleman, there are way more muzzleloading matches then BPCR matches at the national shoots, i was there a couple of weeks ago and i don't remember seeing any cartridge shooters on the line.

Read the range schedule as published in Muzzle Blasts.

 

[Jason Lewis]

this is for rifleman, there are way more muzzleloading matches then BPCR matches at the national shoots, i was there a couple of weeks ago and i don't remember seeing any cartridge shooters on the line.

Read the range schedule as published in Muzzle Blasts.

alright, fair enough, i'll do you one better though. flip through the match book for the national shoots.

 

[flintlock50]

I am currently on the board of the NMLRA. I very much like to see discusions such as this online to learn what opinions are out there.Was also at membership meeting and heard some of the ideas that were brought up. One thing I feel needs to be stated is that the NMLRA is and was founded as a muzzleloading shooting organization with the primitive side and commercial row added as welcome additions to the association. We are not and I don't believe will become a re-enactor based organization. The safety aspect of large numbers of participants running with loaded guns shooting from behind trees etc. makes it difficult at best to incorperate at the national shoot level.Some of these ideas could be done during offshoot times. The primitive chairman and myself are working on getting a juried encampment in the primitive area and working on ideas to get scouts into the woods incorperated into national events this will take some effort and imagination!!
The magazine IS totaly different than it was years ago all one has to do is a side by side comparison!
The shoots listed in M.B. are alternate range use events including BPC and .22 silohutee some NMLRA sponsered others not.
Since you don't attend the national events are you suggesting that we need to host more muzzleloading events you will not attend.
Friendship is the home to the NMLRA and the location of our national shoots as members we should take pride in it as such wether or not we currently have the opportunity to go there or not!! It is thru participation at our events locally and nationaly that this association will survive.
WE as your board have been working to solve the problems we face, of which there are many, not using internet to its potential being one of them.
On what I hope is good news we have started a novice program for newcomers to Frienship to allow them to get feet wet without diving into the deep end. We also at last meeting set-up classification program for women shooters to encourage their participation.
Sorry my turn to get off soapbox.

 

[FishDFly]

I am a member and will continue to be one.

The magazine, I read what interests me, if an article is of no interest, it’s skipped. I take the daily newspaper and I only read what I wish, no different, same again for CNN.

Advertisements in the magazine, I do not read them nor do I read them in the newspaper.
Advertising is what pays for the magazine though. Without advertisements, there is no magazine.

There is a pie chart in the magazine of member’s interests which I cannot find now, but there are 3 main groups; competitive shooters, hunters and primitive/re-enactors/living history/gun builders.. The organization is attempting to meet the needs of 3 different interests and make all of them happy.

Articles for the magazine, if you do not like what is written, write one and send it in, they would be happy to have too many articles to publish.

I go to Phoenix instead of Friendship, Phoenix fits my calendar better. I would like to go to Friendship for the shopping and the experience. I went in 1996 and found out it was canceled due to rain, back stroke, back stroke..

Membership continues to shrink, but it’s not only at the National level, but in the local and state clubs as well. Many local clubs are gone. I shoot at a club which has 1,800 members, of that, 3 shoot in the BP matches.

I have spent time talking with those at the National and State levels about shrinking memberships, no one has the magic answer to stop shrinkage.

There are several causes of shrinking:

Single households where the head of the house hold is female, this does not promote the shooting sports of any kind.

Urban living, today people are not raised around guns, in the household or neighbors.

Lack of places to shoot, not much interest if you don’t have a place to shoot, ranges are being shutdown each week.

Disposable income, 20, 30 and 40 year olds do not have a lot of disposable income to spend. What money they have is going to living and raising kids. Money is not available until the empty nest stage of life is reached and college is paid for.

Society is changing, nothing you can do about it.

Death of members has been mentioned.

Mr. Vogel and Mr. Roland, nice people. I have appreciated meeting and visiting with each.

The NMLRA is not perfect, but it sure beats what is in second place.

 

[tecum-tha]

I understand that the NMLRA sees itself as a target shooting association. No one proposed that we should become a reenactor organization. We can't become that anyways, there are other organizations already doing that. But the primitve area will not be in existence for a long time into the future, if we don't get younger folks/reenactors onto the premises. At the pace it is going, even the vendors in the primitive area can't sustain continuing to attend during the big shoots, because they simply hardly make any money, because there are hardly any customers there which have a deep interest in the offered products.
There are a lot of historical re-enactments at the same time or within the same timeframe to the 2 big shoots in Friendship. These events were probably far and between 20 years ago. Nowadays one has multiple choices. For a lot of vendors the attendance=demonstration of historical craft is not a "fun" decision, but a business decision.
This is another reason why a lot of vendors leave early.
Separation into too many small different interest groups kills any big organization and usually later a lot of the small ones,too. This is still the advantage of the NMLRA: The timeframe is wide, allowing about 5 big time periods:
+ pre-french and Indian war
+ F&I war
+ pre-revolutionary war and revolutionary war
+ War of 1812
+ Fur trade

Second thing:
If I just want to punch paper, I can do that all day long in my backyard. If I want to do it in Friendship, I can still do that with the existing matches. Fact for me is: I like the random team shoots like Fort Greenville the best, it has an integrating factor and everyone has a great time.
A lot of discussions are following and knowlegde gets exchanged freely and easily.
This is differnt than just standing on the firing line and shooting paper for your score.

The woodswalk is nice too, although lacking the adrenaline of Fort Greenville.

I am shooting mostly on the primitive range, becasue I don't like in-lines, the heavy barreled .45 cal chunk gun bench cannons and other modernized shooting equipment. But this is just me.

 

[FishDFly]

Dixie,

Thanks for your effort for being a Board member and insights to the NMLRA .

Tecum-tha

Thanks for starting the discussion, my only thought is there is a lot of discussion on the line with a free exchange of knowledge from those who punch paper. I have been helped by nationally ranked shooters who took their time out to help me, some you would know.