NW Trade guns and fowlers

[SOLANCO]

I had a chance to buy both a fowler and a trade gun, including the loan of the guns for a month of shooting on which to base my decision. Both were 28 gauge. I came real close to buying the fowler simply because it was 10x the wing shooter, for me anyway, due to stock configuration. And I do a lot of wing shooting and rabbit shooting.

But then a very "bad" thing happened. I got to handle and shoot another fowler belonging to a friend. It weighed close to a pound and a half less in spite of a barrel the same length, and it swung and shot like lightning. The balance was as good as my cherished modern upland bird guns.

The difference was in the barrel. Both of those on loan had 20 gauge blanks bored to the smaller diameter 28, resulting in a whole lot of extra steel out front and frankly rotten balance. The last one was specked just like the originals and had a barrel sized for 28 gauge and bored accordingly, resulting in much thinner barrel walls and much better handling. Easy to see why the fowlers of their day were popular and effective when shooting that one alongside the ones with barrel compromises.

The "bad" thing? It meant that even for very reasonable used prices, the two on loan were a bad investment. I was going to have to have one built with the correct barrel. I'm still saving my shekels for a build, but it's going to be a while.

For me it's very definitely an all or nothing deal. Built right, I'll own one. Built with a 20 gauge barrel reamed to 28 gauge, and I'll pass.

Matches my experience with a repro ml double gun. The barrel walls were twice the thickness of most of my unmentionable doubles. It mounted and swung like a cast iron pipe. A pound and a half heavier than the average of my other doubles. 1.5 lbs doesn't sound like much but following dogs all day with a 7.5 pound gun instead of a 6 pound gun will tell on you and your gun mount and swing.

 

[waksupi]

Just a point of interest. Curly was a founder and board of directors member for the Museum of the Fur Trade, in Chadron. Many of the guns on display there are from Curly's personal collection of originals.

 

[waksupi]

Hello all, I’m kicking the tires on a Curly G trade gun. Seller says the 20ga barrel is jug choked. Did Curly make his own barrels or out source them? I’m just curious on how tight the choke might be, how well it’ll pattern for turkeys?!! Thanks!

When Curly started out, I think he was using Mossberg barrels. I'm not sure how many barrel makers supplied the company over the years. When I started building for NSW, Long Hammock was making the barrels, and Matt went to another supplier when Long Hammock was getting swamped with barrel orders. I inspected every barrel that came to me for building, and never found a bad one in the bunch. My smooth bore (cylinder bore) will throw a good enough pattern with fine shot (7 1/2) at 30 yards to take turkeys.

 

[Rudyard]

I had a chance to buy both a fowler and a trade gun, including the loan of the guns for a month of shooting on which to base my decision. Both were 28 gauge. I came real close to buying the fowler simply because it was 10x the wing shooter, for me anyway, due to stock configuration. And I do a lot of wing shooting and rabbit shooting.

But then a very "bad" thing happened. I got to handle and shoot another fowler belonging to a friend. It weighed close to a pound and a half less in spite of a barrel the same length, and it swung and shot like lightning. The balance was as good as my cherished modern upland bird guns.

The difference was in the barrel. Both of those on loan had 20 gauge blanks bored to the smaller diameter 28, resulting in a whole lot of extra steel out front and frankly rotten balance. The last one was specked just like the originals and had a barrel sized for 28 gauge and bored accordingly, resulting in much thinner barrel walls and much better handling. Easy to see why the fowlers of their day were popular and effective when shooting that one alongside the ones with barrel compromises.

The "bad" thing? It meant that even for very reasonable used prices, the two on loan were a bad investment. I was going to have to have one built with the correct barrel. I'm still saving my shekels for a build, but it's going to be a while.

For me it's very definitely an all or nothing deal. Built right, I'll own one. Built with a 20 gauge barrel reamed to 28 gauge, and I'll pass.

20 bore cant be rheemed to 28 bore . The other way round might work. Curly G bought Shaw Brls then milled the oct. I have a 24 bore brl breeched, proofed, and browned in Birmingham for a' Chiefs grade. Ile stock it up presently but getting to the US will be a problem these days .I have all the mounts inc a real silver befeathered Indian head wrist escutcheon . be happy to find a buyer but just getting guns to the US is a bain these elightened ! days .
Rudyard

 

[NorthFork]

@Rudyard

I think BrownBear meant a barrel blank meant for a 20g but only bored to 28g. Therefore leaving more wall thickness than necessary. Thus being heavier and 'clumsier' than optimal. At least that's how I read his post.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

I can recall reading over at American Longrifles Forum, builder Mike Brooks talking about how much difference there was in the balance & handling of one of his Type G Carolina trade guns when made with a Colerain, or Rice, octagon-round barrel; and a historically correct, thin-walled barrel measuring 2"-5" longer made by Bobby Hoyt. Most barrel manufacturers simply will not fabricate a barrel with 1/16" thick walls, even for a smoothie with its substantially lower pressures compared to a rifle.

His Type G Carolina trade guns weigh in right at 6 pounds with a 20 gauge, 47.375" long Hoyt barrel.

Danny Caywood, Bobby Hoyt, and a handful of the smaller barrel manufacturers are the only ones where one can purchase a HC fowler/trade gun barrel.

 

[NorthFork]

I'll wade out into the alligator pool and say that if Rice, Colerain and the like would make the barrels from stronger steel than 12L14 than maybe the wall thickness could be reduced some.

FWIW, I own several 12L14 barrels and will likely purchase more.

 

[R.J.Bruce]

Rice offers a not very well known HC, thin-wall, barrel constructed from 4140CM steel. Only available up to 41" in length, and with a maximum breech diameter of 1.125" across the flats octagon. At a cost of $375.00. They are supposed to be VERY LIGHT in relationship to ordinary barrels of similar diameters and lengths.

The only ones I have seen online have been at the American Longrifles Forum. One in 20 gauge, 0.620" bore diameter; and one in 16 gauge, 0.672" bore diameter. Jason will make these 4140CM barrels all the way down to .45 caliber smoothbore, 51.3 gauge; and up to a 12 gauge, 0.730" bore diameter.

51.3 gauge = 0.450" bore diameter
37.4 gauge = 0.500" bore diameter
28 gauge = 0.540" bore diameter
24 gauge = 0.580" bore diameter
20 gauge = 0.620" bore diameter
16 gauge = 0.672" bore diameter
14 gauge = 0.690" bore diameter
12 gauge = 0.730" bore diameter

Each barrel will be sized according to the length desired, and the style, such as Classic Spanish proportions (2/5 octagon-to-3/5 round). Regardless, the barrel walls will be kept as thin as possible.

If the customer is willing to pay the bill for the extra work, then these smoothbore barrels may be had in traditional swamped octagon patterns, only up to 41" in length. Be warned that the cost will likely be between $500.00 to double the cost of an octagon-round 4140CM barrel.

Rice also offers jug choking, but only in 24 gauge barrels, and larger. And, only in their new production barrels.

 

[11th corps]

I shot mine in the members only postal match feature right here on this forum. May's challenge.
I assembled mine from T.O.W. parts about 15 years ago. I am not a hunter but enjoy shooting at the range. I cast my own Lee mold 325 grain .600 round balls from range scrap. Last year for the first time I tried shooting shotgun pellets.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear North Fork Since the Shaw barrels like the Bader barrels before them came bored & threaded only the oct milling was done by N Star at least at that time . That could be wrong or other plans followed .What I do find puzzling is the belief that some how a rifle puts up with greater strain that if smooth & firing shot. As The common target pea rifle 22 has a barrel well over it stress needs . while a 12 bore is wand like in comparison but you wont to be walking about all day with a gallery rifle whereas with the shotgun you do & at targets ranges you just lie down.A ball of 1 onze fits only on its pherifery but a shot gun of the same bore commonly exceeds the onze & in being shot thrusts into its self by the gasses or' upsets ' jambs in effect creating much greater stress ...But a rifle is better for a heavier barrel to keep it steady while the fowling piece needs to be light and better suited to a quik shot wheras stood up the recoiling is scarce felt. But try it prone then you get greater recoiling than with a heavier rifled gun given the charge is equal . .Each gun is a horse for its particular course ..
Regards Rudyard

 

[NorthFork]

Rice offers a not very well known HC, thin-wall, barrel constructed from 4140CM steel. Only available up to 41" in length, and with a maximum breech diameter of 1.125" across the flats octagon. At a cost of $375.00. They are supposed to be VERY LIGHT in relationship to ordinary barrels of similar diameters and lengths.

The only ones I have seen online have been at the American Longrifles Forum. One in 20 gauge, 0.620" bore diameter; and one in 16 gauge, 0.672" bore diameter. Jason will make these 4140CM barrels all the way down to .45 caliber smoothbore, 51.3 gauge; and up to a 12 gauge, 0.730" bore diameter.

51.3 gauge = 0.450" bore diameter
37.4 gauge = 0.500" bore diameter
28 gauge = 0.540" bore diameter
24 gauge = 0.580" bore diameter
20 gauge = 0.620" bore diameter
16 gauge = 0.672" bore diameter
14 gauge = 0.690" bore diameter
12 gauge = 0.730" bore diameter

Each barrel will be sized according to the length desired, and the style, such as Classic Spanish proportions (2/5 octagon-to-3/5 round). Regardless, the barrel walls will be kept as thin as possible.

If the customer is willing to pay the bill for the extra work, then these smoothbore barrels may be had in traditional swamped octagon patterns, only up to 41" in length. Be warned that the cost will likely be between $500.00 to double the cost of an octagon-round 4140CM barrel.

Rice also offers jug choking, but only in 24 gauge barrels, and larger. And, only in their new production barrels.

Interesting. Was not aware of Rice offering 4140 barrels. Thanks.