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Coot

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I would like to offer a suggestion re the revisions to the posting rules. First, a few thoughts, some mine & some mentioned by others in this thread.

To me a "vendor" is one who sells things that they may have made but more likely did not make. A "craftsman" is one who makes things that may or may not be offered for sale. "Vendors" are profit motivated, "craftsmen" may or may not be profit motivated. That said, unless someone posting in the craftsman section is unable or unwilling to answer questions about how they made an item (leading us to believe that they did not make it but are merely marketing it) or where the volume of items is extremely high, it is hard to distinguish the vendor from the craftsman. To distinguish the 'hobby craftsman' from the 'professional craftsman' is even harder - some hobby makers may have a higher volume than some part time pros.

Which leads to a key question - why bother to distinguish if the item is posted by a hobby oriented craftsman or a professional? As long as the item is well done AND the poster responds to questions with good information re how it was made, documentation of the style or pattern, sources of materials, a valid forum member need has been met. I am happy to get useful advice from any member, pro or amateur.

Perhaps rules that make clear that all items offered for sale must be posted in the classified, that all offers to buy or sell directly from one member to another be handled exclusively by PM. Suggestions for commercial sources not related to an individual member - an exchange something like "what did you use for stain" - " I used the dark walnut from Track of the Wolf" should be ok as I see them as informative posts but not self serving ads. Posts in the craftsman sub forum should not make reference to items listed in the classified nor vice versa. Posters that have a neat item to share but are not the maker nor trying to sell, should post the item in the photos subforum. Posters in the craftsman section should respond to reasonable "how to" questions regarding the items they post or be banned from that subforum. I hope that in the revised rules that you will let the "professionals" post as shared information is valuable to all of us.

Thanks for your work to both maintain and improve the Forum.
 

LRB

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Robby, thankyou for your photos. Your work is not only inspiring, it's just totally awesome! You are a true craftsman. Hmmmm, don't we have a forum here titled "THE CRAFTSMAN"? Be a shame if a craftsman couldn't use it, I would think. Kinda reminds me of a legal case that depended on what the definition of is,is. Oh well, whatever.
 

lonehunter

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Robby, i agree with Wick, if there is a true craftsman on this board it is you, your work takes the drool factor to another level. :bow:
Oh, Wick dont do too bad either, for a old man! :blah:
 

Little Wattsy

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BrownBear said:
I'll weigh in briefly.

If there's a distinction to be made between pro and amateur, I'd sure like to see a pro section in addition to an amateur-only.

I really like to see the pro results for my own education and enjoyment of great craftsmanship. These guys all started as amateurs too, and we all benefit from their research, trials and interpretations. They're great craftsmen and the forum is a better place for having them show and discuss their work and techniques. I don't know of any place else that carries this to the level found here.

Amateurs have every right to expect an opportunity to show their own work and get comments and help too. If some of them feel intimidated by the pros, a separate venue for amateur work might help resolve that. I sincerely hope that the pros will visit and comment however. I find their insights and recommendations to be priceless.

PERFECTLY Said!!! I have Learned A LOT by looking at and asking questions of "the Pro's"
 

Mike Brooks

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Late in coming in on this one. I build guns for a living, I suspect every one here knows this. I post guns I have built on this site from time to time. Everything I build and have shown here was usually sold two years before I started to build it. If I have something to sell I post it in the "for sale" forum....makes good sense to me.
I'll tell everyone involved right up front that my participation on this board brings me business. But , I don't actively solicit orders here. I also feel I have paid my dues, not that it should give me any special privileges. The above mentioned "gunbuilding tutorial" I gave freely as I saw the need for something like it to help answer the same questions that were being asked over and over. (the gun in the tutorial was also sold two years before i built it.) A picture is worth a thousand words in a case like this.
I also participate here for my own personal enjoyment as I do on other boards. I probably ought to keep my mouth shut and opinions to my self as they probably hurt my business rather than help it.... :haha:
 

widget350

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You may be more direct than some people want, but I doubt that drives away any real potential customers for you. The amount of knowledge you demonstrate in your posts adds to the value of your guns, as it helps to demonstrate your expertise. The quality of your knowledge professes to the quality of your work. (Of course, the guns demonstrate it as well. :wink: )

I referenced your tutorial as one of the greatest resources on this whole site. I think if you surveyed the builders on this forum, at least 75% of them (amateur or pro) have probably referenced this tutorial in their builds.

By all means, please keep your opinions coming, and I'm always happy to see your guns as well!

I wish we could all make a living by doing something we are so passionate about. :thumbsup:
 

Capt. Fred

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Coot, you beat me to it. I've been away for a while and decided to check in on this thread. Personally, I don't care if the item posted is for sale, sold, or is going in the garbage tomorrow. As long as the person who built it is willing to share how it was done, where the parts came from, etc. I personally don't have any interest in any other side issues. Vendors, pros, part timers, hacks (like myself), amatures,..... who cares? Post it, tell us how you did it, be willing to answer all questions, and handle any buying and selling through the classifieds or PM's. No big deal.
 

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Capt. Fred said:
Vendors, pros, part timers, hacks (like myself), amatures,..... who cares? Post it, tell us how you did it, be willing to answer all questions, and handle any buying and selling through the classifieds or PM's. No big deal.
I once ran a web site for profit, so I'm familiar with what seems to be happening here.

I'm sure it's "no big deal" to you, as you have no stake in what happens here, but what about the forum's ability to sell advertising? How can they justify selling an ad, if vendors can post their merchandise for free and, as you say, "handle selling" through a PM?

Who would buy an ad when advertising is free, if accompanied by an explanation of the manufacturing process? Sure, you like it, but what about the forum's ability to make advertising money? Apparently no one cares about that.
 

gizamo

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I'm lookin' for the Snooze Smiley....

or the broke my Giva' Dang Smiley... :hmm:

Carl, er I mean Jack....

I absolutly believe our Head Honcho has a handle on what he's doin'.... :thumbsup:
 

Claude Mathis

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Jack Wilson said:
How can they justify selling an ad, if vendors can post their merchandise for free and, as you say, "handle selling" through a PM?
That's the question that I need to answer for myself. Paid advertising is becoming more important, as the cost of running the Forum is going up, not down.
 

gizamo

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Claude,

True words,....

Can I offer some help? I've got some friends that have re-organized their approach to some gun forums..and improved their overall operating costs.

Steve
 

Claude Mathis

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gizamo said:
Claude,

True words,....

Can I offer some help? I've got some friends that have re-organized their approach to some gun forums..and improved their overall operating costs.

Steve

I'm always open to suggestions. You can contact me here: webmaster@muzzleloadingforum.com
 

nc_cooter

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Very well said, sir. Pictures are invaluable on a Craftsman Forum. They inspire, they give information and they evoke questions.
I have never seen a craftsman here ask for money to answer a question----send x dollars in a self addressed envelope and I'll send you an answer----
The info has already been paid for by the craftsman who has invested years of his time and personal money to develop his knowledge of a craft. It's also been paid for by the people who have purchased or may purchase the items he made.
It takes money to pursue a craft, be it full time as a business or part time as a hobby.
It also takes money to run a forum that promotes a craft. We all acknowledge that.

Forum: an outlet for open discussion of matters of interest to a given group.

This is a private forum and the owner has the right to operate it in any manner he chooses. I would hate to see the forum and members lose resources that keep it thriving. Be it funds or information.
Mike
 

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Old Knfmkr said:
I would hate to see the forum and members lose resources that keep it thriving. Be it funds or information.
God forbid the members lose their free service.

Does that mean you're going to become a premium member and help pay for the service you receive? I bet you will send your money in today. :haha:
 

rabjr

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Jack, your out of line. This is Claudes site and he said he is working on it. He does not need you to be to be it's mouth piece and I'm sure I'm not the only member who doesan't care very much for you appointing yourself as such. Just let Claude handle it. It's none of yours or anyones elses business whether someone chooses to be a premium member or not and no one should be chastised for it either.
 

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Swampy said:
Jack, your out of line. This is Claudes site and he said he is working on it. He does not need you to be to be it's mouth piece and I'm sure I'm not the only member who doesan't care very much for you appointing yourself as such. Just let Claude handle it. It's none of yours or anyones elses business whether someone chooses to be a premium member or not and no one should be chastised for it either.
I'm sorry, I'm just offering my opinion, just like the posts above that say how they think it's fine for people to post their wares and do their selling using PMs. Is it not fair to hear an opposing point of view? Why don't they let Claude decide and stop offering their opinions?
 

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Old Knfmkr said:
If you will look at http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/882649/ you will see that Claude asked for input from members.
I think that when Claude has had enough input, he will let us know.
Mike
So, according to Claude, he wants my input?

My input is: You can't sell ads if you let vendors post their products for free and do their selling using PMs, as suggested by others.

That's my final offering on this.
 
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