Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

[FlinterNick]

YIKES! That looks nothing like a French 1717. It's too fat by 50%. Have you ever handled an original '17?

Here a 1717 lock I assembled ….. take my word …. These Indian made guns are junk

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm sorry to say you are giving bad information. I have vented many of the India made muskets from Military Heritage, and they are all threaded breech plugs. It sounds like you didn't try to remove the breech plug to see if it is threaded or not, or perhaps the one you have isn't from Military Heritage. This one in this pic is from MH. It's a 1717 French Musket. I pulled the BP and notched it. Then vented the barrel. I've shot this many times and it shoots great. I did have to harden the frizzen and tune the lock, however the BP is threaded. I would like to see a pic of the musket in question and the makers marks on the bottom of the barrel. Semper Fi.

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No sir I did not remove the breech plug as I do not have to make an informed judgement call. Nor do I want to be the last person to mess with the integrity of an already questionable barrel. I don’t need to see the the threads all I need to see is how it’s breeched and it’s flanged and short which is not a prudent gunsmithing method.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

They use teak or North Indian rosewood. Neither is suitable gunstock wood … it’s way too hard and brittle and doesn’t finish well.

It’s also surplus teak which sometimes has been recycled from decking and ship planking.

They use a lot of wood because their attention to the details of the guns authenticity is lacking.

I've slimed down and refinished India stocks. Some are very difficult to rework. Not as far as taking excess wood is concerned but finding the right stain and finish. Stain can be a bear. Hear's one I slimed down and kept.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

No sir I did not remove the breech plug as I do not have to make an informed judgement call. Nor do I want to be the last person to mess with the integrity of an already questionable barrel. I don’t need to see the the threads all I need to see is how it’s breeched and it’s flanged and short which is not a prudent gunsmithing method.

IMHO, your statement about the breech plug is only half full. Semper Fi.

 

[FlinterNick]

IMHO, your statement about the breech plug is only half full. Semper Fi.

Well first of all there was no reason to remove the breech plug, the gun is vented. All you have to do is observe the breech end which is flanged. Put a call in to Rice Barrel Co and ask about the measurement. The professionals even said do not remove the plug. Do you even understand what a flanged plug is?

 

[FlinterNick]

the Indian made barrel which is flanged, as you can see the tang does not support the actual bolt of the breech plug on the other picture is a Miroku Charleville Barrel that is correctly breached and marked.

You can clearly see how the flange end seam on the Indian made barrel, this is not customary of blackpowder breech plugs that are not chambered or even hooked.

The breech plug on the Indian made musket does not have a definitive witness mark that is marked on both the barrel and plug, unlike the miroku plug which is appropriately marked. I’m not taking this plug off. Maybe perhaps you do this to your own guns, but I don’t own this gun and I’m not ‘messing with this barrel for liability purposes.

Furthermore the breech is octagon, and the flats don’t even line up with the plug’s filed flats…

 

[FlinterNick]

with all do respect your guns don’t look slim at all.

Teak does not finish well because it’s a closed grained wood like an oak, locust or exotic wood that needs to be dyed. Open grained woods such as maple, walnut and cherry take stain very well, and are suitable gunstock woods.

While almost any wood can be used for gunstocks, the real answer is suitability. Gunstock wood should be equally as hard as tough with a straight enough grain and no runout. Teak offers some straight grain but it’s very brittle and closed grained, making it subject to chipping and splitting. Not a good quality when considering the recoil of black powder guns.

If teak was a viable option for muskets the British would have used it as they pretty much owned India’s raw materials in the 18th century, however they even chose to use cheaper cuts of walnut and beech because its more suitable for long term gunstock use.

 

[sturmkatze]

Good lords, let's have another huge thread of bs, "They's bad" "Ah lines mine" "icky" "great"

You're not going to change anyone's mind

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

the Indian made barrel which is flanged, as you can see the tang does not support the actual bolt of the breech plug on the other picture is a Miroku Charleville Barrel that is correctly breached and marked.

You can clearly see how the flange end seam on the Indian made barrel, this is not customary of blackpowder breech plugs that are not chambered or even hooked.

The breech plug on the Indian made musket does not have a definitive witness mark that is marked on both the barrel and plug, unlike the miroku plug which is appropriately marked. I’m not taking this plug off. Maybe perhaps you do this to your own guns, but I don’t own this gun and I’m not ‘messing with this barrel for liability purposes.

Furthermore the breech is octagon, and the flats don’t even line up with the plug’s filed flats…

Looking at your pic's, I know that maker. It's Predeep Singh. Owner of Narayan Sports Ltd. His family has been making muskets since 1957. He also goes by Rajasthan Armoury. I'll guarantee you that breech plug is threaded. I have bought about 50 muskets from him. They all needed vented, frizzen hardened and tuned. But all were safe when reworked. The breech plug is made from a solid piece of steel. It's as strong as any BP out there. By the way, you can find him on Facebook under Narayan Sports. Now, whether the person who vented the barrel cut the BP short instead of notching it, who knows. Narayan's BP's are almost always too long and have to be notched. Semper Fi.

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[Comfortably_Numb]

I have always doubted the wood they stock that junk in is teak. Teak is hard and expensive. This wood is soft as pine and cheap. It's also white, teak isn't white, at least not on the boats I have worked on.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I have always doubted the wood they stock that junk in is teak. Teak is hard and expensive. This wood is soft as pine and cheap. It's also white, teak isn't white, at least not on the boats I have worked on.

There's heart wood and there's sap wood. Sap wood is 180 out from heart wood. Many India stocks have a combo of both. That's why you see such a contrast in the grain. The difference can be felt when working the wood. Like you said, the sap wood is so much softer and lighter. That's also why some come painted brown. the wood won't take stain. Semper Fi.

Heart wood/sap wood.

Painted on right. Wonder what the wood looks like under the paint? Look at the grain near the cap box. That's rough grain for that type of wood.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have always doubted the wood they stock that junk in is teak. Teak is hard and expensive. This wood is soft as pine and cheap. It's also white, teak isn't white, at least not on the boats I have worked on.

There are many variations of exotic teaks which are very fine hardwoods. The woods used on Indian arms are a classification. Of Indian teak that is often regarded as surplus teak.

Teak that is exported from South America and Indonesia is commodity hardwood that is often used on fine outdoor furniture and expensive yachts.

 

[FlinterNick]

Looking at your pic's, I know that maker. It's Predeep Singh. Owner of Narayan Sports Ltd. His family has been making muskets since 1957. He also goes by Rajasthan Armoury. I'll guarantee you that breech plug is threaded. I have bought about 50 muskets from him. They all needed vented, frizzen hardened and tuned. But all were safe when reworked. The breech plug is made from a solid piece of steel. It's as strong as any BP out there. By the way, you can find him on Facebook under Narayan Sports. Now, whether the person who vented the barrel cut the BP short instead of notching it, who knows. Narayan's BP's are almost always too long and have to be notched. Semper Fi.

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Whether the BP is notched or not isn’t a concern, the barrel maker needs to make a better breech plug, this is low quality. I’m only working on the lock, not messing with the water pipe.

 

[FlinterNick]

Good lords, let's have another huge thread of bs, "They's bad" "Ah lines mine" "icky" "great"

You're not going to change anyone's mind

Well.. sorta agree. I can understand having one of these if you can’t afford a really nice brown bess or charleville, however for the folks who stack up dozens of these in a collection…. Good luck selling them.

 

[wganz]

Cause good ones cost so much???

When I had just found out about N-SSA and didn't know about the approved arms list or the Small Arms Committee; in total naivety ordered an 1840 musket from Loyalist Arms and don't recall the exact total at the moment for the musket + bayonet delivered but it was somewhere north of $700. And I'm not going to whine, cry, and/or snivel here about the learning curve on getting an 1842 musket with original parts. The last part of my 401K stuff is to land Tuesday and going to treat myself to a ready to go musket so that I don't have to borrow one from the team captain yet again. It's not pride, just that I was raised to not be a mooch & stand on my own.

Just to make it visual, check out the cost difference to first a musket from Loyalist Arms vs. an Armi Sport. A smooth $1,000.00 difference. And it is totally understandable that is a hurdle some cannot make. Trust me, if that 1842 project musket barrel had gone a different direction with being able to reline to smoothbore, I darn sure wouldn't be slapping plastic down on this.

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[FlinterNick]

When I had just found out about N-SSA and didn't know about the approved arms list or the Small Arms Committee; in total naivety ordered an 1840 musket from Loyalist Arms and don't recall the exact total at the moment for the musket + bayonet delivered but it was somewhere north of $700. And I'm not going to whine, cry, and/or snivel here about the learning curve on getting an 1842 musket with original parts. The last part of my 401K stuff is to land Tuesday and going to treat myself to a ready to go musket so that I don't have to borrow one from the team captain yet again. It's not pride, just that I was raised to not be a mooch & stand on my own.

Just to make it visual, check out the cost difference to first a musket from Loyalist Arms vs. an Armi Sport. A smooth $1,000.00 difference. And it is totally understandable that is a hurdle some cannot make. Trust me, if that 1842 project musket barrel had gone a different direction with being able to reline to smoothbore, I darn sure wouldn't be slapping plastic down on this.

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Shop around , armi sport 1842s go for 1000k.

Your price is at the highest possible

Traditions™ 1842 Springfield Kit - Rifled Musket

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Well.. sorta agree. I can understand having one of these if you can’t afford a really nice brown bess or charleville, however for the folks who stack up dozens of these in a collection…. Good luck selling them.

Not an issue selling them. I sell them proofed and ready to shoot for $895.00 delivered on Gunbroker often. None of my buyers have ever had an issue. I guarantee my work and guns. Semper Fi.

 

[FlinterNick]

Not an issue selling them. I sell them proofed and ready to shoot for $895.00 delivered on Gunbroker often. None of my buyers have ever had an issue. I guarantee my work and guns. Semper Fi.

Aren’t you the same fella who said to not use a steel tipped ramrod because it could generate a spark and ignite the charge in the barrel?

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

In this, and all other Sections and sub-sections of the N-SSA Rules and Bylaws, the notation of "approved" by designated N-SSA representative(s) shall mean that the item in question has been certified as meeting the dimensional, configuration, mechanical function and authenticity criteria of the N-SSA. It does not infer, or in any way guarantee, the safety of any particular item.

I love N-SSA's disclaimer. So many of these morons shoot these muskets year after year without cleaning them. Detractors like to point out failed India Muskets, however there are as many failed "approved" muskets on You Tube as there are India. Look 'em up. For any musket to fail like that there has to be an obstruction or constriction. You could shoot a blank out of a PVC pipe and it won't catastrophically fail as these pics show. Perhaps N-SSA should check to make sure the musket has been cleaned before a reenactor is allowed on the firing line. Semper Fi.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Aren’t you the same fella who said to not use a steel tipped ramrod because it could generate a spark and ignite the charge in the barrel?

I is boss man. I is... I don't use the steel rammer in my muskets, I use a $5 fiberglass one. When I sell a gun, I send several sheets of paper with the gun explaining safety, proper loading procedures, proper charges, how to properly clean your gun, how to sharpen your flint and an explanation why they should not use the wooden rammer and to use a safe rammer. Whatever they do after is on them. OH, I also tell them if they have any questions, to call me before they do anything stupid. Getting info from, E-HEM, people who 'think they know what they are doing' but really don't, will just get them injured. Semper Fi.