newbies like to learn thing from the masters, please forgive me.

[BlackHillsBob]

went to a match several years ago. their was a 18 year old young man with if i remember right, shooting a cva flintlock. he cut center every time and his report cracked like we all read about the old days. he won the match hands down. every one wanted, includeing me, why he did and why his gun cracked and our went boom. his secret was as you all guessed it he use 4f real black in the pan and in the barrel. is this safe and is this a good thing, it was for him. i went home and tried out my very good hand made 50 precussion with 4f. it cracked also, shot real perfect, didnt have to swab between rounds. worked up to 80 grains of 4f behind a linen patched 495 round ball.never had anyone to ask in those days if i was nuts or the young man was nuts. now i do, please let loose with any info you all have on what i asked about. soon this newbie will run out of questions. thanks before hand. black hills bob

 

[Shot deer]

went to a match several years ago. their was a 18 year old young man with if i remember right, shooting a cva flintlock. he cut center every time and his report cracked like we all read about the old days. he won the match hands down. every one wanted, includeing me, why he did and why his gun cracked and our went boom. his secret was as you all guessed it he use 4f real black in the pan and in the barrel. is this safe and is this a good thing, it was for him. i went home and tried out my very good hand made 50 precussion with 4f. it cracked also, shot real perfect, didnt have to swab between rounds. worked up to 80 grains of 4f behind a linen patched 495 round ball.never had anyone to ask in those days if i was nuts or the young man was nuts. now i do, please let loose with any info you all have on what i asked about. soon this newbie will run out of questions. thanks before hand. black hills bob

I don't think your nuts to do it, as long as it is safe and doesn't "malfunction" you might say in a dangerous matter. Other members may have other opinions, maybe some more educated than me, but weigh your options!

 

[Rifleman1776]

That may be what he used but unlikely the use of 4Fg as the main charge is what won those matches. The 'crack' may be the result of the 4Fg. This is a strange game. His CVA was probably tuned well since it worked reliably. That said, with priming powder being used as the main charge, one should be very careful to not over charge or excess pressures might occur.

 

[bang]

Been using Pyrodex "P" in all my BPs for years. It's as close to 4f you can get in Pyrodex. I'm sure the crack you were hearing was contributed to a presice leanest most efficient load for the barrel volume.

 

[Eutycus]

I would like to thank Mr. BlackHillsBob for this thread. I've been a member of this forum for several months and its a rare occurance when almost anyone speaks positively of a CVA rifle. (Or pistol for that matter). For some reason they seem to be "looked down upon".
Granted CVAs are very far from top of the line but many a shooter wouldn't be here if it weren't for this make of gun that got them started in muzzleloading and blackpowder shooting. Once again thank you Bob.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

i have built 3 cva kits in the past. one to give to the minister of my church who was money pour but Godly rich. the difference in the kits i bought in those days was deer island made american barrels for them at 1/60 twist for a 50 cal round ball. they cut center at 100 to 150 yards every shot with out twicking. the other 2 were sold to a friend who will not part with them for any money. he can cut center at any range with those guns. he uses a linen patch and a .495 round ball and 100 grains of 2f goex and those two gun will do what the old timers did every shot with out a hiccup. the newer cva/s are a 1/48 twist. dont be afraid of buying one and building a gun of your dreams from them. just dont use more than 70 grains of real black in them to make that 1/48 twist talk turkey. when a 50 cal round ball passes through a deer or elk with 70 grains of real black behind it what more do you need. no more. if any of you want to build a cva kit. i can give you the way to make tha gun talk turkey. as to the way to make that beech woood stock look better than tiger stripe maple. and yo make that 1/48 twist barrel give you point on aim every shot with real black powder. this 80 year old man has years of bad and good experience behind him. a man is not a man untill he passes it on to those who want to learn. im so happy that it was posted about cva/s that beech wood stock has more curl than the best maple. go to my sticky on cast boolits. look at the beech wood stocks done with my guidence. it under gun smiths i think. it is a sticky that can be moved to here at my permission. how to do a gun stock the roger method. also thier are ways to tweek that barrel from cva that i know to shoot like the dream gun you always wanted. at my age i just want to share what i have learned over the past 35 years. knowledge should be past on. thanks for listening blackhillsbob.

 

[rich pierce]

That guy could probably win with my rifle or yours, loaded however.

 

[Kansas Jake]

18 year old muscles, 18 year old eyes, 18 year old reflexes and if he was a good shot, would go a long ways to cutting center. I was a much better off hand shot 40 years ago. Now I have a hard time off the bench with eyes that create wandering front sights and the distractions of floaters in my eyes from time to time. When working up loads recently on a couple of new to me guns, I have a hard time distinguishing between flyers and sighting errors on my part. Some times I can call them, other times I just don't know.

 

[azmntman]

I would like to thank Mr. BlackHillsBob for this thread. I've been a member of this forum for several months and its a rare occurance when almost anyone speaks positively of a CVA rifle. (Or pistol for that matter). For some reason they seem to be "looked down upon".
Granted CVAs are very far from top of the line but many a shooter wouldn't be here if it weren't for this make of gun that got them started in muzzleloading and blackpowder shooting. Once again thank you Bob.

Out of 20+ rifles my CVA Hawkinish rifle is the most accurate and most consistent shooter I have owned in my 46 year journey

 

[Grenadier1758]

I would like to thank Mr. BlackHillsBob for this thread. I've been a member of this forum for several months and its a rare occurance when almost anyone speaks positively of a CVA rifle. (Or pistol for that matter). For some reason they seem to be "looked down upon".
Granted CVAs are very far from top of the line but many a shooter wouldn't be here if it weren't for this make of gun that got them started in muzzleloading and blackpowder shooting. Once again thank you Bob.

In general, the barrels provided in the CVA or Traditions rifles were very good. Many of the CVA rifles would be used to win many a match. They still do at my gun club. The problem with CVA was the use of the beech wood and the cheapness of the locks to cut costs. The percussion locks could function okay. The flint locks were a source of much anguish. Some work okay even though the springs were weak and sparking less than exciting. One of the reasons that in the 1970's and 1980's flint lock firearms were considered a joke and absolutely not to be used if reliability was necessary.

 

[Eutycus]

Thank you for that bit of info on the CVA flintlocks.Having never fired a CVA flintlock I was ignorant of that fact. I do however stand by what I said earlier pertaining to CVAs in general.

 

[Rat]

Maybe I'm kind of dense, or don't pay attention to some things, but I've never noticed an attitude that CVA rifles were not worthy. Being enthusiasts I believe there are a large number of us who have custom rifles, but I don't think any of us started out that way. But again, I must have missed something along the way. I don't/haven't see(n) where CVA rifles are looked down upon.

It's always been my understanding that when a rifle starts to "crack", that just means the ball has exceeded the speed of sound, which is around 1150fps. Or 1125, or something like that. 80 grains of ffffg in a .50 would certainly exceed 1100fps. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Darkhorse]

Rat, if memory serves me, you are correct in that exceeding the sound barrier generates that long rifle crack.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I use 4f across .45 to .750.
Still here.
It's more efficient

 

[BlackHillsBob]

again,i want to offer my knowledge of making a beech wood stock beuatiful beyond all expectations.its a very tough wood and someone taught me years ago about wood. also i come from many generations of furniture makes, hand crafted, not factory. traditions is a good kit,wont break the bank.im going to rebarrel a bench gun from 50 slug to 45 round ball. most likely will shoot 4f in it. thanks every one for your input.

 

[54ball]

Your pushing it with 3fffg in a big bore rifle and exceeding sanity with a 4ffffg load in a big bore rifle. No manufacturer, barrel maker or load manual will recommend a 4ffffg load. Most, specifically caution against it.
4ffffg is primimg, a few grains to start a substitute and maybe the minute load in a tiny caliber screw pistol. It ought not be the main charge in a shoulder arm.

Here's 5 main issues with 4ffffg.
1. Most common volume measures are based on 2ffg. The same volume of 3fffg will be heavier by weight than the equal volume of 2ffg. 4ffffg is heavier still! Just by grains alone a 4ffffg charge is a much heavier charge thrown from a 2ffg measure.
2. There's no 4ffffg load data. As the powder is finer you get into excessive pressures. In short, it's unpredictable. Going back centuries before standard powder sizes, fine powder ( as fine as talcum) was quite common. Another thing that was common in that period was unpredictable performance and blown up guns.
3. CVA breeches are exceedingly strong or overbuilt. They are much stronger than the traditional flat breech design. Just because some ill informed kid wins a match, makes his rifle crack and survives does not mean you will have the same luck.
4. Unexplained gun failures by reenactors. This is conjecture but I personally believe a lot of these failures are caused by the powder acting as barrel obstruction. Due to fouling or overloading, the bottom of the charge ignites while the top of the charge column does not, or is delayed, thus setting up a double shock wave obstruction in the barrel. Back to point 2, 4ffffg could potentially be unpredictable.
5. No Margin Of Error. You can double load by accident with 2ffg or even 3fffg and there is a margin of error. Since any load of 4ffffg is already an unpredictable excessive load...there's no margin of error.

In closing....Use 2 or 3F as the main charge, never 4f. This has been standard practice for what? The last 200 years? There's a reason for that.

 

[Rat]

My question is....I find that even 2f will sometimes, not often, but sometimes tend to dribble out my touch-hole. There has been times, while out hunting, that I'll open my pan to check it, and shazam, there's more powder in my pan than when I primed it. Further examination confirms that some of the main charge has dribbled out. I use 2f Swiss, maybe it's finer or almost as fine as some brands of 3f? This seems to happen, but not often, with both my musket and rifle. I have never used fffg in either of my flintlocks, either fg or ffg.

Anyhow, if this happens with 2f, wouldn't ffffg aggravate the situation? Brit, have you experienced that? Or would it matter to you?

What I do, when loading my first load for hunting, is load about 20 grains of fg, then the rest in ffg. For me, that keeps the main charge packed against the touch hole, and I believe it results in slightly faster ignition. Of course, if I reload in the field, I don't do that...just a straight charge of ffg in the rifle, or fg in my musket. In my musket, I've switched to fg, so no more dribbles.

Most well built rifles will take insane overloads, but indeed that does not mean it will enhance performance or accuracy. Reenactors, for sure, are a whole different animal, and those guys do things that would keep me awake all night, concerning how they operate, maintain, clean, or don't clean, and neglect their guns.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

I want to hear more from britsmoothy,pros and cons he has experienced with 4f all the way.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Everything I've ever read, and been told regarding 4fg is to never use it as a main charge in any rifle. Now maybe the guy in the subject of the OP's thread got away with it because maybe he was only using 4fg in small amounts as a kicker to get a coarser load started. Who knows for sure but the thing I do know is its not a good idea, in fact its a bad idea to use 4fg as the main charge. Its not worth the risk just to cut the center out of a piece of paper.

 

[ThumperJones]

I just can't see there being enough of a noticeable benefit to using 4F as a main charge to risk it. If you can get a "crack" and good accuracy with 4F, you can do the same with 3F. And probably 2F. But much safer.

And if you want to experiment or prove a point using 4F, I think at a match or range with innocent bystanders is the worst place to do it.

Just my wacked out opinion.