New to cap & ball revolvers

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by Chaco24, Feb 5, 2019.

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  1. Feb 5, 2019 #1

    Chaco24

    Chaco24

    Chaco24

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    4CDDA97E-DB73-438F-8533-D18F048A891A.jpeg 346D7F70-FFE4-43E8-9005-974C0D989790.jpeg 3A7D2321-3B8D-44A8-B8AF-94FC162A3578.jpeg purchased my first black powder revolver last Friday from Cabela’s (Pietta New army 44.) and the only powder that was available was Pyrodex FFG, the manufacturer says to use FFFG which I don’t have. My question is is it ok to use the FFG to shoot the revolver with? I don’t want to injure myself or my brand new revolver. Also the gun was coated in grease, what’s the recommendation for cleaning a brand new cap and ball revolver? TIA
     
  2. Feb 5, 2019 #2

    8 BORE

    8 BORE

    8 BORE

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    This looks like a .58 Remington.
    Clean it thoroughly with a good gun cleaning solvent. Pyrodex RS (2f)
    Pyrodex P (3f). Use black powder if you can find it. 3f
     
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  3. Feb 5, 2019 #3

    Tom A Hawk

    Tom A Hawk

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    FFF Black Powder is preferred but FF will work be fine. I had a short barreled Remington like that and it had quite a loud bark.
     
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  4. Feb 5, 2019 #4

    Chaco24

    Chaco24

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    Should have been clearer, 1858 is the year, 44. is the caliber
     
  5. Feb 5, 2019 #5

    8 BORE

    8 BORE

    8 BORE

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    The revolver you bought is usually refered to as a .58 Remington. Mainly because they have a solid frame. (TOP STRAP) Most of the others are Colt style (OPEN TOP) Revolvers. It can be confusing
    but you will get it. I have a few 58 Remingtons, mostly older ASM brand. Just clean it with some kind of gun solvent. Dont take anything apart that looks complicated. No need to take out the nipples,till you get acquainted with the pistol.
    8BORE
     
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  6. Feb 5, 2019 #6

    8 BORE

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    Then use some good gun oil
     
  7. Feb 5, 2019 #7

    bang

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    I use Pyrodex P in all my BPs. Now some won't agree with this but to each their own. Was using RS in rifles using #11 primers but experienced too many hesitations. RS works fine in my inline with 209 primer. FF is too coarse for pistol. Not that it won't pop but the burn rate not suited for them. I have the same pistol. I also have a formula I reverse worked from an article about find peak efficient load. It does not give the exact load but rather gives a good safe starting point using round ball.
    Bore radius squared x 3.1416 x barrel lemgth x 15.72
    For this pistol, if I got barrel length right, comes to 13.77. So a good start point is 14grains. Every gun shoots different so adjust from there. In mine I don't go past 25 grains, even in the 7.5 barrel. With conicals I drop powder 10%.
    There are all kinds of lube out there you can use to seal the cylinder with. I've been using wax melted together with veg oil for years. Inexpensive to make and easy. I use it for patch lube too. Make some to a consistency it can be used in bakers syringe for revolver cylinder.
    Another thing you might check is that the cylinder bore provides projectile diameter fits barrel max diameter. Sometimes, for what ever reason, this happens. I just picked up a colt walker and found the cylinder bore was delivering a projectile that was 0.005 less than the max 0.44 barrel bore. Meaning it was barley catching riflings and leaving gap to barrel max. It is something to look into if the accuracy is an issue for you. Some take to gun smith to rebore cylinder. I lucked out and was close and able to hone polish to good diameter.
    Always use projectile that when pressed into cylinder cuts a ring of lead to insure tight seal. If you mold your own only use pure lead.
    #10 primers.
    Lots of ways to clean. I take grips off and use hot soapy water. Soak about 10 minutes then brush and mop. Rinse with very hot water. The residual heat helps it dry quickly. Drop or two of oil on all moving parts. Light oil mop cylinder bore and barrel mainly for preservation durring storage. Clean out oil before next shoot. Then I go over outside with silicone cloth.
    What I do. Everybody has their on ideas.
     
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  8. Feb 5, 2019 #8

    rodwha

    rodwha

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    In my Pietta 1858 Remington Sherrif I found that it does best with a 30 grn charge of 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 regardless of whether or not I load a .457” ball or my 170 or 195 grn wide meplat conicals. The Olde E, when weighed, shows to be about 33 grns. There’s easily enough room for about another 5 grns or so with the ball or 195 grn (it’s 0.460” long).

    I broke my powder measure, which was an adjustable rifle measure my father gave me. I doubt my new one will throw precisely the same, and I intend to scratch into the brass 5 grn increments which should allow me to eyeball 2.5 grn increments to further test my guns for their preferred loads (mine are hunting tools so my revolvers require 25 grns for me to feel them humane options ~.44 Spl performance or 300 ft/lbs).

    My chambers were much smaller than the groove diameter. The chambers have been reamed to 0.449” and I’m thinking of going a little further.

    I make Gatofeo’s #1 lube for the grooves or for felt wads, and use it on my rifle conicals as well. I like it.
     
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  9. Feb 5, 2019 #9

    bang

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    I went to .451 on my walker cylinder use .454. The measurement was off enough there was air gap between ball and bore max.
    I have a Remington New target model. It will hit on half dollar a 25 feet. Haven't checked and probably won't worry about it the way it shoots. I have 4 other cylinders from other Remingtons and they all shoot good in the target model.
    I emailed Uberti about it and all they had to say was they are reproductions and not necessarily built to accuracy tolerances. I think it falls under liability. If someone gets hurt and they have changed the tolerances then they are in the clear.
     
  10. Feb 5, 2019 #10

    Grenadier1758

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    Welcome Chaco24 to the forums.

    Pyrodex is harder to ignite than real black powder (GOEX, Olde Eynsford, Scheutzen, Swiss, et al). You didn't say if you have caps, but I would want to have the hottest caps that I can find, that would probably be the Remington caps. Sometimes the pistol nipples are sized for #10 caps and other times they are sized for #11. I would use #11 magnum caps (CCI) to help set the Pyrodex charge off. If the caps are a bit large, you can slightly pinch the cap and they will stay on the nipple. You may have to watch for loose caps jamming the works, but the loose caps can easily be cleared from the action. Pistol grade powder (3fg) would be better than rifle grade RS (2FG), but the 2fg will work.

    The powder charges in this muzzle loading sport are measured in volume which is equal to real black powder. Pyrodex is less dense so the measured weight is less than the equivalent weight in black powder, but Pyrodex is designed so that the volume measure is roughly equal to that volume of black powder. Yes, 2f is safe to use in your new pistol. Be very aware that the fouling generated by shooting muzzleloading firearms is very corrosive, so be sure to carefully clean and lubricate your new pistol.

    Read the threads on cleaning and lubricating. A new pistol will need to be cleaned using alcohol or carburetor cleaner to get the grease out of all the nooks and crannies that will block your cap flash from getting to the powder charge. Then you want some grease on the pin that supports the cylinder. A little bit of anti seize lubrication on the nipple threads is a good step. Do not over tighten the nipples in the cylinder. Its not necessary to tighten past snug on any of your threaded bolts or nipples.

    The first time you go to the range be sure to cap your unloaded gun and fire a cap on all the cylinders. Point the muzzle at something that will move to watch and see if the bore is clear. Blades of grass move, leaves flutter, or dust will blow around.

    What size ball came in the starter kit. A good 44 caliber ball will be 0.454" in diameter. It is confusing, but you want a soft lead ball so that when you load the ball a ring of lead is shaved off the diameter. 44 refers to the diameter from land to land and you need the 45 caliber ball to fill the grooves. There is a long thread on this topic here on the forum.

    There is no need at this time to worry about refinements on the cylinder mouth diameter or other performance improvements. This is the time determine how it shoots and where to find black powder. Yes, Pyrodex or 777 will work. And if that is all that is available there is no reason to get over stressed.

    Make some smoke and put some holes in a target.
     
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  11. Feb 5, 2019 #11

    FishDFly

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    I disagree with "not" removing the nipples prior to firing.

    Some pistols manufacturers blue the cylinders with the nipples in the cylinder, which causes great difficulty in removing the nipples. If you cannot remove the nipples, it needs go back to where you bought it.

    Get a copy of Percussion Revolvers by Mike Cumpston and Johnny Bates. You will learn a lot from reading it, it is a worth while book.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  12. Feb 5, 2019 #12

    Chaco24

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    Thanks for the information!!! When I bought the revolver I also purchased a “starter kit” for 44./.45 Caliber black powder revolver that came with a powder flask, powder measure, capper, 2 different size lubed wads, nipple wrench and thirty .457 lead balls. I also bought some Hornady swagged lead balls in .457 & Remington #10 caps, Ballistol and Hoppe’s #9 Black powder gun bore cleaner & patch lubricant. Also I downloaded some YouTube videos from duelist 1954, blackpowdershooter44, & Dustin Winegar to help get me started.
     
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  13. Feb 5, 2019 #13

    Kansas Jake

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    Back to cleaning. I pull the cylinder on my Remington reproductions and take out the nipples. I put the nipples in a small jar or plastic container and let them soak in warm water with a drop of Dawn or similar dish soap. I then drop the cylinder in a container with the same solution to soak while I clean the barrel. I turn the gun upside down and clean the barrel with a patches also soaked in the water soap combination. I also use a wet patch to rub down the exterior of the action to get rid of surface fouling. I use Q tips to clean in the hammer area. I then use plain water to on patches to rinse the barrel and the gun. After the barrel is clean I run dry patches through it to dry the interior of the barrel and a dry cloth to wipe down the exterior of the gun to get rid of most of the water/moisture. I forgot to mention, I usually pull the grips before doing this. I then spay the barrel and action with WD40 to get rid of moisture. I follow this with a light gun oil or Barricade.

    I then clean the cylinder with a brush or jag to get rid of fouling. Rinse and dry it the same as the gun, clean the nipples and re install. As noted above I use anti-seize on lightly on the nipples or in some cases a bit of oil and re-assemble the firearm. I make sure a lube the cylinder pin well as that is the part that will get fouled on a remington. Some use some type of grease.

    When you are comfortable you can also complete disassemble the gun for a complete cleaning. Some do this every time they shoot. I do it once or twice a year depending on how often I shoot.
     
  14. Feb 5, 2019 #14

    8 BORE

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    8 BORE

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    I would think that .457 balls would be too big for the Pietta. But who knows since it's new.
     
  15. Feb 5, 2019 #15

    FishDFly

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    Pietta calls for .454, seating .457 with the loading lever will be a challenge.
     
  16. Feb 5, 2019 #16

    8 BORE

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    8 BORE

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    He said his starter kit included .457 balls.
     
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  17. Feb 5, 2019 #17

    FishDFly

    FishDFly

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    That does not make it 100% correct, anymore than does Youtube posters and their infinite wisdom.

    In all honesty, he can shoot what he wishes, only trying to help as did 8bore.
     
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  18. Feb 6, 2019 #18

    Chaco24

    Chaco24

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    I’m not an expert by any means but I’ve read (on the net) that .451 don’t seat very well and can result in chain fires. The manual calls for.454 and my research on YouTube has shown people using .457 to eliminate the possibility of chain fires while shooting the exact same revolver that I have, so I’m being overly cautious.
     
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  19. Feb 6, 2019 #19

    8 BORE

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    I put in corn meal over the powder and have never had a chain fire.using .454 balls
     
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  20. Feb 6, 2019 #20

    bang

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    457s does seem a bit big. Best to measure barrel max diameter, cylinder and see how they match up. Even if cylinder is 45 454 should seal just fine. 457 gona be pain to ram otherwise
     
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