New smoothie thread...

Same subject (almost) new thread. From what you guys are telling me about making paper cartridges it sound like the paper is the "patch".
I've used "cross" paper patches for my bullet shooting .451 rifle barrel and they worked well, can you use paper patches for round balls?
I don't know why you would, but would it work as well as cloth patches. I know thick paper would not work, but what about the thin linen paper I use for paper patched bullets?

 

In the 14 bore, the paper ctgs. shot just as well as patched balls. This shows that the paper did indeed seal, however smaller than about .58 cal probably won't work due to much higher pressures than the big bores produce. I am assuming that a fairly tight fit to the barel with your 20 bore will work jsut fine with aorund 80 to 120gr. 2F. The nly way to find out is to try it.
: If you try a different type of paper patch, just keep in mind it must be a very snug fit, as my paper ctgs. were. You couldn't shove them flush with the muzzle without using the rod, choked right up on it to prevent breakage, or using the short starter. Loading fast requires the use of the rod only with your hand just above the brass rod tip to get the ball started. Once into the bore, they'd shove down easily. I used 2 to 3 wrapps of paper for the rifle. It didn't seem to make any difference to accuracy. Two raps in the .62 might work just fine, I'm sure, with the .610 ball as most of the paper is around .003 to .004 thick. Putting lube around the ouside of the patched ball might be a good idea with the smoothbore. In Taylor's '28 Bess, 4 shots fouled the bore quite badly. Due to much undersized balls in the ctgs. it was still easy to load, but really caked on the inside of the tube. He required 3 sopping wet patches to get it all out.
Daryl

 

[Stumpkiller]

". . .can you use paper patches for round balls?"

Both sides did in the F&I War and the Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, Crimea, the Franco-Prussian War, about any battle involving French, German or British troops between 1700 and 1840 . That's why I suggested you try. The paper of a cartridge works just like a cloth patch, provided it's waxed or greased so it doesn't burn up immediately. The Bess' ball was very undersized, and the part of the paper cartridge that held the charge was left on top (after the powder was poured down the barrel, of course) and rammed down on top of the ball to hold it tight against the powder. They considered speed and volley fire more important than accuracy. With a tighter ball/barrel fit, as we would use, you end up with two or three thicknesses of paper after it is rolled into a tube and it holds the ball tightly in the barrel (especially after the first shot fouls the barrel). Forming a "+" patch with a single thickness of thin paper, like for a smooth bullet slug gun, would require a larger diameter bullet for a tight fit and would be a bear to load after the bore was fouled.

But, I think loading at the muzzle with a loose piece of paper and a ball would be impossible to do without ripping the paper. It has to be rolled around the ball.

Think about it. Linen paper IS very thin cloth.

 

"A rose, by any other name?"
a patch is a patch. If it takes up space between the projectile and the bore it's a patch. Paper, technically, is nothing but thin felt, unwoven fibers in mat form. Paper quality is judged by the rag content in the stock. Linen, denim, pillow ticking, plastic shot cups or old wasp nests, it's all just "patching". Traditional or modern, the only way to find out what works is to experiment. That's one thing this bunch is good at. We havn't the slightest fear of death or maiming in the pursuit of knowledge, much of it very meticuliously gathered and recorded with great dificulty considering the few digets and extremities we have left! Some one will have you a complete table of results ready to download before nightfall. Where's Daryl when we need him? He probably already has this on file.

 

[musketman]

Making Paper Cartridges

Disclaimer--The guns that use paper cartridges and some of the components are illegal for some people to own in some states. Check your state and local laws.

The paper is presoaked in potassium nitrate to make it completely combustible for those times when the paper is rammed down with the powder.

The paper is rolled in a dowel rod and the edge glued. In the Civil War, they waxed a wooden dowel. Modern suppliers sell an aluminum dowel. The dowel rod should be slightly larger in diameter than the bullet.

A dowell rod is used to roll the cartridge

Add the bullet in one end and tie or glue the end. Measure the powder and pour it in the other end. Bend the extra paper over and glue or tie it down.

A .58 Caliber paper cartridge with the end folded up.

A .69 paper cartridge with the end tied.


There is no primer with the exception of the European Dreyse Needlegun. Flintlock guns are fired by the flint striking an iron frizzen showing sparks onto a small amount of powder outside the barrel with a touch hole to carry the resulting miniature fire into the barrel. The later percussion guns have the hammer snap down on a percussion cap where an explosive mixture sends fire down a tube and hole to fire the powder charge.

The end result looks ragged by comparison to modern products. They used drawings in the books way back then, such as the 58 Minie and 69 Musket cartridges to the right.

 

Fascinating! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Rocky Johnson]

Atta boy MM . I will try that in my Fowler. Thanks Rocky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[shooter575]

In US army manuals through the C/W smoothbore cartridges ie ball or B&B.The cartridge end was biten off,powder poured down barrel then rest of cartridge with ball ramed[url] home.In[/url] the rifled musket,the powder loaded as above.But the paper was striped off minne.Bare minne only. Paper cartridges were not nitrated for smoothbore or rifled musket.
Now the English Enfield rounds were load double wraped.outer paper held powder and a paper patched minne.Outer wraper was discarded.PP minne went down tube.
Rebs used both methods.

Jim

 

I was referring to nitrated paper in the breechloading Sharps.
: Some guys talked of using nitrated paper for musket and smoothbore shooting & this, I think, is a bad idea. I guess I didn't explain myself clearly.
Daryl