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New old rifle - what is it?

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pjmcdonald

32 Cal.
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
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image_zpscyqkj8rt.jpeg
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image_zpscyqkj8rt.jpeg


And where do I start?

What I know: approx .32 or .36 cal. Cap lock but may have been converted from flint. Hard to make out until cleaned up. The known family history dates it to my grandmother's grandfater's sister and her husband. My grandmother was born 1922. Her mother 1882. Her father around 1855~1860. So I'm guessing latter part 19th century. My uncle passed it on to me.

Barrel needs work. Maybe a rebore to .45? Probably a new breach plug. Mainspring might be a little weak. Lots of cleaning to do. Maple stock needs refinishing. Forend cap needs replacing.

The work interests and excites me. The family history tied to it makes it all the sweeter. Not sure what it is or how originally acquired. Any thoughts or info is much appreciated.



PJ
 
Looking forward to the pictures when you can get them posted.
As to "Thoughts"...here's one that comes to mind IMMEDIATELY:
DON'T "repair", or REFINISH ANYTHING for the time being.
Be patient until a lot more has been determined about the rifle to fully flesh out what you can learn about it. When it was built, where, and by whom. The more severe your "cleaning" is...especially if it extends to repairing refinishing or anything like it...the harder it will be to make any determinations about the rifles provenance.
 
If I manually follow your links I can see your pics - you may not have the "share" function turned on which is preventing them from showing up as links here.

Looking at the pic I can say with almost 100% surety that the lock was never flint - it is absolutely a percussion lock and always has been.

So if this ever was flint, the entire lock was replaced.

The trigger guard looks (generic) - kinda similar to some Leman's I have seen, but also could be southern - doesn't appear unique to either a specific region or maker (at least from what I can see in the one pic).

The very long (nose - sometimes called a foot) on the forestock is typical of Ohio rifles, although it looks quite a bit longer than what I would expect to see (and am a lover of Ohio's).

That combined with the fairly short under rib might tend to indicate that (someone) later in the rifles life attempted to convert it from a full-stock, due to damage without much mind to "style" (and what I mean is, a jury rig job in today's terms to keep it "functional" rather then try and make it "look pretty").

If that lock is original to that rifle AND if it was originally a full-stock my guess would be that it is a ca. 1940's build that was probably produced west or south of the Penn/Mar area.

I will add, from the pics it doesn't appear that you have a lost Dickert or Armstrong there, so a little cleaning up to try and determine any makers marks etc will probably not hurt it much in terms of value.
 
Well, still having trouble getting photos to post. I'll try to get some more today, in better light. Will drop them here Link

If it helps, to the best of my knowledge family has always been in mountains along TN/NC/GA area - Appalachian people.
 
Find the share area of your photo hosting site for each picture.

Copy the link that starts with Img or Image and ends in jpg and post it directly into your posts here on the forum.
 
Photobucket is adding ".html' to the end of their image URLs, forcing you to go to their web site, rather than simply displaying the images.

I suggest using any service other than Photobucket.
 
The OP used a Apple Ipad mini 4 to take the picture....A while back another guy was having trouble with photos and he was using an ipad too.. :hmm:
Maybe there's a connection... :idunno:
 
I've tried 6 different ways and 3 different photo hosting sites trying to get his image to appear....NONE worked.

OMG! that was like pulling teeth...

wKa57Fg.png
 
Clyde
Thanks for sorting that out. I did take photos w iPad. Will try different camera. Got invited out of town for short hunting trip. More to follow as I try to sort out that old rifle.

PJ
 
Graham,
Thanks. I don't think the stock was cut down. The for end cap is broken off on right side and doesn't show in my first set of pics. Realize now I'll have to get good light, better camera, and lots more pics.

Lock appears to be original. Lots of tool marks in barrel groove and in inletting. Also tool mark on underside of barrel.

I don't expect that it is anything rare, fancy, or valuable. I do believe it is older than 1940's, from my family history. Can positively trace it back 4 generations before me. I'm the 5th to inherit.

Barrel is clogged with dirt dobber nest - red clay mud. Haven't found any makers marks yet.

More to follow when I get home.

Again, thanks for all the advice and analysis!

PJ
 
Still having trouble with pictures but am working to get more. I haven't fully disassembled the lock but I did do some light cleaning with mineral spirits and a toothbrush. What I've found thus far:

When comparing to my ToW catalog, the lock appears very similar in size and mechanicals to the Ohio (warranted) and Goulcher locks. The tumbler does not appear to have a half-cock position, though I have not fully disassembled to check. The hammer is very loose on the shaft - it is pretty worn out. I found some very very faint scrollwork on the lock plate. Corrosion has got the best of it. Looks like the cut out in the lock plate for the drum is oversized - maybe just corroded away.

I haven't found a close comparison for the trigger mechanism. It has a set trigger. When cleaned, lightly oiled, and reassembled, the trigger will not trip the sear to drop the hammer. Full failure to fire, set or unset. Not much spring tension left on the set trigger, I'm afraid. I think also that with wear, the whole trigger-lock assembly is loose and out of alignment.

Length of pull is 13". Barrel is about 32 7/8". Looks like there was some work done around the drum but I'm not sure. Almost looks like solder - kind of a grayish metal repair. The barrel/breach plug no longer seats against solid wood. I think it is .32 cal, maybe .36. Either way, the barrel is full of mud and rust. Rifling appears to be completely gone. Forgot to measure - will check tonight but is on the order of 7/8" to 1". Pretty heavy for that small a caliber.

Trigger guard has had some repairs. Obvious braze at the front where it was repaired or pieced together. Looks like maybe an epoxy or brazed repair at the rear fold.

Steel buttplate. One minor wood repair right at the corner of the toe. Wood was varnished at some point in past but that has mostly flaked off. Nose cap might have been pewter - not certain. Half of the nose cap is broken off. Single brass thimble and single pin connecting barrel to stock. Rear sight has corroded to point it is just a half moon. Front sight has been filed almost flush with barrel.

I have a few courses of action. One is to simply clean it up, reassemble, and leave it as a wall-hanger. I really hate not having a functioning rifle, though.

Second course of action is recondition/restore. Gently remove old varnish and refinish the stock with oil - linseed or the like. I want to maintain the patina. Wood appears to be very good. No big split or cracks. A few minor checks. Mostly worn around the lock and where the breach seats in the stock.

Ship the barrel to have inspected, reconditioned or replaced as appropriate. Have new sights and drum installed. Possibly new thimble. I'd really like this in .45 cal if possible. Bed the barrel in the stock.

As for the lock and trigger, I'm not sure they can be saved. Is there anyone that reconditions these? I'd prefer to have reconditioned than to replace but worst case I'd replace with ToW replicas. Would require a little woodwork to re-fit.

Several new screws. Some have no threads left, one is bent, some are obvious replacements (round head instead of flat head).

Trigger guard I'm going to keep pretty much as-is. I'll clean the rest of the scale off of it and mostly leave it alone. It is clunky but I like it. There are some stories there - wish I knew them. Oddly enough, the front of the trigger guard is not inlet into the stock but the rear is.

I'm probably crazy. I'd even like to pour a new pewter nose cap. I could probably get a better fitting, well functioning, and good looking Pedersoli Hawken or such for less than I'd spend restoring this rifle. But this rifle is family. It has languished for at least the last 20 or 30 years in a garage. But at roughly 150 years old, it deserves some TLC.

I appreciate comments, suggestions, and potential sources. Assuming I start the restoration (where my heart is taking me, anyway), I'll move posting over to gun builders bench part of forum. At this point, just looking for general advice.

Thanks,

Paul
 
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