NEW (old) RIFLE - MAJOR PROBLEMS - NEED HELP & ADVICE!

[LongJnSilver]

Greetings all! Bought that beautiful full-stock tiger maple flintlock advertised on the forum a couple of weeks ago - maker W.P. Rush engraved on the barrel. The stock wood is to die for! At the outset, let me say I don't believe the seller was aware of these problems. First problem was that the lock would not go into half-cock. Like the 1970s TEAC reel-to-reel decks I refurbish, gelled grease in the lock (CS) innards - and rust on the lock plate - was the problem. Cleaned. FIXED! (YouTube before & after -

/

. BUT THEN I set to cleaning the rear of the barrel, touch hole (50% obstructed) and the wood of the lock inlet. UH-OH! Noticed that at the butt of the barrel, the stock has about a 1.5" crack running aft. (Photo). Didn't think that was too much of concern - UNTIL I began to remove the layer of fouling from the rear of the barrel around the touch hole (photo). There is a CRACK in the barrel itself - extending down from - and INTO - the touchhole interior. (There is a tool mark - drill bit? - perhaps made when the touch hole was enlarged.(photo) QUESTION: Is this barrel not in the process of self-destructing? Rather depressed at this point (put yourself in my shoes), heart thumping, I began looking closely at the top of the stock just behind the barrel. There is a crack in the stock wood behind the top left of the barrel that has been filled (photo) - and runs right around to the left side of the stock and along the top of the side plate (photo). SO, GENTLEMEN, the question is, is this a shootable rifle, or a beautiful wall-hanger? WOULD YOU FEEL SAFE FIRING THIS WEAPON? PLEASE WEIGHT-IN with your expertise! THANK YOU! - LongJnSilver - Johnny - johnwadelong@gmail.com


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[LawrenceA]

I see your pain.
Can you show us this crack?
Without knowing more I think you may need to consider cutting a bit off the breech or getting a new barrel and fitting it.

 

[erhunter]

If there are that many problems with the rifle, and the previous owner wasn't aware of the problems, maybe they will give you a refund? I think I have learned a lesson here. If I buy a used firearm off of any site, I will ask to have a 3-5 day inspection period to return it with full refund. I feel the previous owner had to know some of the problems with this rifle. Now that I read that that rifle was advertised as "in perfect condition", I would be contacting that seller tomorrow!

 

[LongJnSilver]

Thanks for your reply. The crack is shown in the posted photos - as are the cracks in the stock - internal and external. The rifle was advertised as in perfect condition, so investing further in cutting the barrel off? or buying another barrel and having a competent gunsmith install it would run it to many, many hundred and is not an option... especially when having done so would still leave me with a cracked stock.

 

[Art Caputo]

Just based in the extent of the issues you describe, It’s hard to imagine the seller not being aware.I would contact the seller and discuss the condition and ask for a refund. IMO.

 

[LongJnSilver]

If there are that many problems with the rifle, and the previous owner wasn't aware of the problems, maybe they will give you a refund? I think I have learned a lesson here. If I buy a used firearm off of any site, I will ask to have a 3-5 day inspection period to return it with full refund. I feel the previous owner had to know some of the problems with this rifle.

Thanks, ehunter. Good suggestion - an agreed-upon inspection period. Dan has been showing this rifle on the forum for over a year with many members commenting on it. I take his word that he was not aware of the cracks in the stock, though yes, a close inspection should have revealed them. It was his father's rifle - kept in a gun safe.

 

[LongJnSilver]

Just based in the extent of the issues you describe, It’s hard to imagine the seller not being aware.I would contact the seller and discuss the condition and ask for a refund. IMO.

Dan and I had a long phone convo this morning. He has seen the photos and agrees that the rifle is not what it appeared - and is willing to accept a return and refund my money - but is having financial struggles at this time - thus the sale of the rifle. So NOT a "fun" situation for either of us.

 

[58 Caliber]

Just call him and return it. I think that will provide a happy ending.

Whoops did not see the last post. Wow that is a tough one. He got the money and used it for maybe necessities in this messed up world. We are here to help each other. Maybe you could wait on the refunds?? Just my humble opinion.

Dave

 

[Zonie]

Since this is posted in the Flintlock Rifle section which is primarily here to talk about shooting Flintlocks, I'm going to move the thread to the Gun Builder's Bench area where we talk about doing gunsmithing.

The cracks in the wood can be fixed using a suitable glue. I'll let the others chime in on which one might be best and what the best method of clamping the wood would be.

The crack at the touch hole is more concerning to me. Cutting off the damaged area and rebreaching the barrel is not something that is easily done. In addition to getting new threads cut and installing the breech plug, the underlugs of the barrel that hold it into the stock would need to be relocated and the nose cap area would need to be shortened. These things aren't easy, even for someone who works on longrifles.

I think returning the gun to the seller would be the best bet. Not only would you get your money back but the seller would have his fathers old gun to remember him by.

 

[William Lincoln]

If the seller is having financial issues, that makes it tougher to resolve happily.
Unless of course, he has anything else you would accept to even things up.
I always ask the other party what he would like done if he was in your spot.
And, whether he has any suggestions. Good luck and God Bless the outcome.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Perhaps a partial re-fund and use that to bring the gun back to safe shooting conditions. This way you both get a break with maybe you coming up a bit on the short end, but a well learnt lesson.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Re- looked at the pics, a few observations if the one pic is of the touch hole no problem that can be re-drilled and install a liner, what appears to be a crack not so sure, the proof test mentioned is ok but as the gun is shot may weaken, I would not want be shooting it if that would happen, suggestion pull the barrel and take it to a reputable welding shop and have it magnafluxed, If it is a crack send the barrel to Bob Hoyt to be cut off and re-breeched, while that is going on address the cracks in the stock, shorter barrel yes but with a bit of work safer in the long run. I really see a fairly nice but neglected gun with a bit of TLC can be brought back to life.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

He has seen the photos and agrees that the rifle is not what it appeared - and is willing to accept a return and refund my money - but is having financial struggles at this time -

Not sure what this even means, but if the seller is an honest man then he'll give you a full refund, hardship or not, unless you're donating. Not sure how you paid for it but paypal has processes to retrieve your funds but the window of time is limited to 45 days for you to file etc, and if you used a credit card through paypal then that is another option, but you can only do one, I'd go with pursuing with your credit card company, they are usually bulldogs with this sort of thing.

That's just a bad deal, sorry to see anybody get caught up like that.

Good Luck

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

Best to retreat and start anew. Get out if you can.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[danimal107]

I am the seller... I came on here to look at what the community thinks and... wow... Now I feel like I need to defend my honor... The rifle has been in my family for over 55 years. Its not some cheap repo. I have shown it to many established ML people at the national shoots in Indiana a few years ago and everyone said it was a quality build and not a single person found a flaw with it.

John only found potential issues when he took things apart... I admittedly never took the rifle apart as I know absolutely nothing about muzzle loaders. I knew it worked because I have seen my dad do the "flash pan" if that's what its called. I also know my dad shot this rifle in competitions before I was born some 45 years ago. I have seen the pics and spoke to his friends and my mom who were there. This rifle was not some wall art that I am scamming to sell someone. I also had zero knowledge that there may be a crack in the barrel when I listed it.

I told John that I would not leave him hanging and I will for sure work with him to make this as much a win win as possible... I have major medical issues going on that has drained my finances and yes it was one of the factors in selling the rifle. I currently don't have the money to give him a refund. It went to bills the second the money came in...

Thank you to the guys who had knowledgeable posts.

 

[EC121]

In the event a refund isn't practical. The vent looks a little rough already. I would drill it out to liner thread size and, after inspecting the metal for cracking, install a liner which would also reinforce the metal at the vent. You even plug the hole and fill the barrel with water or some kind of penetrating oil to look for leaks. The old Siler lock just needs cleaning and oiling. The cracks are normal for an old rifle with dried out wood. The sideplate crack is from the screw putting pressure on the wood while it dries out. I've seen that on some fairly new guns. Along with bedding the breech, a good quality thin CA in the cracks will handle that. All is not lost.

 

[sportster73hp]

Could the end be cut and rethreaded using a patten breach to make up for the loss of length? This way the stock would not need to be altered.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

The locks a modern day loss wax repro , for a start 55 years old. Ha ha a joke The seller should ask an expert to look at it, so we know the truth, judges in the uk only listen to experts. I am not saying the rest of the gun is not old, I hope it is, I note comments supporting the buyer have been cut from this string , very bad, we need to know the truth......

Attached is a loss wax action I bought from the USA I hope we all go after the seller so he pays up and he can keep his dad's treasured rifle ha ha

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I feel so helpless trying to help the buyer from across the pond. I have a massive workshop to solve his problem

The buyer bought the rifle as he fell in love with the wood which is repairable. I think the way forward Is just to replace the reproduction lock plenty in USA but spend a bit more and get a quality one. Then buy a new reproduction barrel. Obviously you may have to use some filler to seat the barrel but once done it will be a fine shooter.

I can’t only wish you well.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

This is a genuine brand new Warrented lock , made , I don't know , around 1820 , it was part of a job lot at auction when a Birmingham gun company closed down 30 years ago. I made this rifle years ago. When I was not too proficient at building guns, but did my best. I think warranted locks were made for the colonies It sparks far better than the loss wax repro locks I have