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New guy question...loading method.

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.69 caliber smoothbore flintlock is going to be my smokepole of choice.
First muzzleloader so I have been doing plenty of reading and vid watching. Also have the Lyman BP book coming.
For this particular rifle/caliber I’ve seen vids of people shooting it two ways:

1) Open homemade paper cartridge, first dump powder then ball then the paper itself, tap down and fire away.

2) Dump powder then grease patched ball (slightly smaller ball) tap down and fire.

Strictly a personal preference here or whatever is giving this particular gun more accuracy?
Any advantages/disadvantages with either method?
 
From a strictly historical standpoint a greased patched ball was supposedly no used, I wonder where the idea came from to use it with rifles but that's another topic. If its a military musket and you want to make cartridges you will need to find out what sized ball was used originally and use that. There's no need to sperate the ball from the paper if the ball is sized appropriately. I've been shooting my Brown Bess of late and the British used a .69 round ball in their military ammunition so that's what I use in my Paper cartridges.
 
The Bess is .75 lots of room for fouling. I've shot a few paper cartridges but minute of man is about the best I've gotten at 50 yards.

I usually charge the musket, drop a 715 or 735 round ball on the powder and use some wadding to hold the ball in place. I would have no problem hunting deer out to 50 yards with my Bess loaded this way.
 
A smooth bore isn’t designed for accuracy, it’s a volume of fire type of gun. They generally have poor sights and many have no rear sight. As a shot gun there’s no choke and the length and weight means it won‘t swing well on flushed birds. Still a historical and interesting fire arm but understand it’s limitations. What are you hoping to do is first thing to consider.
 
There is a third way (a 4th too but I won't get into it, someone will be along shortly to extols it's virtues as the only way, even though it uses more powder) and that is to sandwich the ball between some type of wads and/or cards.

Which method you use is a combination of performance needing to be adequate for the task at hand and personal preference. Both of these can be influenced by other factors such as rules of a game or personal level of need for historical correctness.

Also with the paper cartridge, as mentioned, with the right size ball and thickness of paper, the ball need not be separated from the paper, but can be treated almost like a preattached patch.
Tear open end of cartridge opposite ball, dump powder, crush empty section enough to allow introduction into the muzzle and ram the whole mess home.
One of my guns shoots very well with this method,,,, it just happens to shoot slightly better with a ball sandwiched between a lubed felt wad and two thin cards.
 
.69 caliber smoothbore flintlock is going to be my smokepole of choice.
First muzzleloader so I have been doing plenty of reading and vid watching. Also have the Lyman BP book coming.
For this particular rifle/caliber I’ve seen vids of people shooting it two ways:

1) Open homemade paper cartridge, first dump powder then ball then the paper itself, tap down and fire away.

2) Dump powder then grease patched ball (slightly smaller ball) tap down and fire.

Strictly a personal preference here or whatever is giving this particular gun more accuracy?
Any advantages/disadvantages with either method?
Either of these ways are ultimately personal preference. Advantages/disadvantages will be determined as part of load develolpment.
 
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The Bess is .75 lots of room for fouling. I've shot a few paper cartridges but minute of man is about the best I've gotten at 50 yards.

I usually charge the musket, drop a 715 or 735 round ball on the powder and use some wadding to hold the ball in place. I would have no problem hunting deer out to 50 yards with my Bess loaded this way.
What powder charge are you using?
 
A smooth bore isn’t designed for accuracy, it’s a volume of fire type of gun. They generally have poor sights and many have no rear sight. As a shot gun there’s no choke and the length and weight means it won‘t swing well on flushed birds. Still a historical and interesting fire arm but understand it’s limitations. What are you hoping to do is first thing to consider.
Good information, I do think it is interesting to note that used as a shotgun smoothbores have been known to work well with stationary targets like turkey and squirrels.
 
120 grains of Grafs 1F and a home cast 735 roundball.
A .735 will not fit in a .69
For a paper cartridge a ,69 shot a ball in the .650 range. To shoot a patched ball you will need something close to .670. I don’t own a .69 and don’t know all the ball sizes
Patching a ball was used on rifles at least back to 1600. It’s mentioned as being used in Canada before 1847
 
Tenngun, I was responding to a Question from Flintlock Whiskey. Mr. Spartan please let us know what type of musket/fowler you have.
 
Nope, definitely not meant for any kind of accuracy.... 20210602_163726.jpg20200306_181734.jpgIMG_20150820_175257_106.jpg
 
Tenngun, I was responding to a Question from Flintlock Whiskey. Mr. Spartan please let us know what type of musket/fowler you have.

Bought a 1777 Charleville AN IX.
As I have a big interest in the Napoleonic period I figured to kill two birds with one stone.
 


you may have already seen some of this fellas videos. He gives a pretty good run down of the various ways a smoothbore can be loaded. good luck with your new musket and post up pics.
 
@John Spartan, perhaps I should have been a little clearer in my response. How one loads a smoothbore is really a personal preference. That preference is based on how that smoothbore is to be used.

You are expressing an interest in the Napoleonic time period. In this case the preference can be based on the use of your 1777 Charleville AN IX in the military context. That would be use of a paper cartridge and a the use of an undersized ball for ease of loading in a combat situation. There the advantages are ease of loading, and experiencing the shot to performance of a soldier in performance of a line of battle situation. The disadvantages are that the use of the undersized ball, while accurate enough for minute of opposing line of infantry is adequate, is not adequate for any kind of accuracy on target or for hunting. A paper wrapped cartridge load can be developed with a slip to fit ball and paper wrap for hunting or target use as evidenced by @Brokennock's example above, but that paper wrapped cartridge is not representative of the paper wrapped cartridge used during the Napoleonic Wars.

The other methods have the advantages of an application for use with both ball and shot. As Brokennoock's earlier post has stated there are at least two or three other methods of loading. Each has advantages. One advantage is the the load from shot to shot will be consistent and have a slightly tighter pattern than the mor historic loading methods. The primary disadvantage is that the other methods take a longer time to load and reload. You have to be more concerned with the build up of fouling in the bore and developing a consistent hold and sighting picture. The use of your Charleville will require a different hold when using a patched round ball, round ball nestled in a wad of tow or near bore sized bare ball held in place by some sort of over ball wad or card.

When used with shot, an over powder wad is used to provide a gas seal between the igniting powder charge and the column of shot. Sometimes a lubricated wad is placed to cushion the shot, then the shot and an over shot card or well lubricated fiber wad to keep the fouling soft and lubricate the shot column as it leaves the barrel (Skychief Load). You will need to develop a more shotgun like hold and sight picture when your Charleville is loaded with shot and a different sight picture if doing wing shooting, squirrel hunting or turkey.

Let's see. I have talked about three methods for loading with round ball and two methods for loading with shot. I have left out a primative shot load using field expedients of dry grasses as the over powder/cushion wad, shot and available wadding for over shot. The advantage is that this is a historic practice for you to experience. The disadvantage is that the historic patters will be more open and effective range is shorter.

So your load will become a personal preference based on how you will use your 1777 Charleville AN IX. Welcome to the world of traditional muzzleloading.
 
From a strictly historical standpoint a greased patched ball was supposedly no used, I wonder where the idea came from to use it with rifles but that's another topic. If its a military musket and you want to make cartridges you will need to find out what sized ball was used originally and use that. There's no need to sperate the ball from the paper if the ball is sized appropriately. I've been shooting my Brown Bess of late and the British used a .69 round ball in their military ammunition so that's what I use in my Paper cartridges.
69 round ball in a Bess????
 
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