Need opinions for a squirrel rifle?

[Zonie]

Arizona passed a law making shooting guns into the air in any town or city illegal. It can be a felony to be found guilty of doing it.

The law, called Shannon's Law was passed in 2000 after a 14 year old girl was struck in the head by a falling pistol bullet that had been fired into the air.

I don't think I've ever seen what the possible trajectory of the bullet was so it is possible it might have been going faster than something just falling straight down.

There are some exceptions to the law to allow hunting in areas outside the city as long as the hunter is over a mile from an occupied building.
Also, it is not against the law to shoot BB or pellet guns into the air inside city or town limits.

 

[coloradoclyde]

One other advantage to a small caliber is if you are hunting in a area with housing or people around the smaller caliber will lose energy much more quickly with less danger down range. That is a consideration, especially when shooting up into trees where there is no back stop. I know most of us never miss so that isn't a big deal, but a 32 ball is in the 40 grain range and a 45(440) is around 128 grains. Both could be dangerous, but the 45 carries much more energy down range.

A responsible shooter is always certain of his target and beyond......Neither squirrels or the sky make good backstops.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Julian Hatcher was hardly an arm chair ballistician . He was a ballistics engineer working at Aberdeen proving grounds for the Army during WW II. I'll see if I can find what I think I remember about what he had to say on the subject.
Upon thinking on the matter further a bullet most likely would begin to tumble once it looses it's rotational velocity and forward momentum and becomes a falling body only loosing practically all of it's aerodynamics, slowing it down even further.
Interesting question!
A round ball would be less effected by tumble even know after it is shot is not round any more.

Guess you never heard about the guys who shot a 30-06 into a small pond from 5 miles away....

 

[M. De Land]

Technically speaking that is true under certain conditions but practically speaking the forces against it's forward momentum are becoming resistant to it's power to inflict damage.
It's spent practically all of it's driving force,lost it's aerodynamics from instability and has become a falling body primarily driven by gravity.
A projectile shot at a high angle can even drop behind the position from which it was launched under the right atmospheric and wind conditions. I know this very well from my Bowling ball mortar experience. You have to be very careful of a high angle departure not dropping back on you.
Now a bowling ball would be a different matter falling on your bean because it weighs approximately 16 lbs not 100 grains or so.
I don't believe one can sustain a killing wound from a body strike involving an elliptically shaped falling ball of 100-140 grains, shot out of a muzzle loading arm driven only by gravitational force.

 

[azmntman]

Arizona passed a law making shooting guns into the air in any town or city illegal. It can be a felony to be found guilty of doing it.

The law, called Shannon's Law was passed in 2000 after a 14 year old girl was struck in the head by a falling pistol bullet that had been fired into the air.

I don't think I've ever seen what the possible trajectory of the bullet was so it is possible it might have been going faster than something just falling straight down.

There are some exceptions to the law to allow hunting in areas outside the city as long as the hunter is over a mile from an occupied building.

I was taught 1/4 mile?

Also, it is not against the law to shoot BB or pellet guns into the air inside city or town limits.

Up here its against the law to shoot any BB or pellet rifle in the city (at any angle or backstop) and they enforce it :shocked2:

 

[M. De Land]

A 30-06 will not shoot five miles at any trajectory path angle. Hatcher has that covered as well. More like 2.5 to 3 miles on about a 37.5 degree departure angle , if memory serves, which is it's longest trajectory possible with any bullet used.
Completely different when shot at the high angles were talking about in squirrel shooting which I often remember being very high and almost vertical at times.

 

[M. De Land]

I was thinking about my first muzzle loading squirrel hunt with my cousin who introduced me to muzzle loading. I was using his .44-.45 caliber flint lock and the angle was high enough that the burning pan powder fell out on my cheeks when the frizzen opened.
I don't remember if I got the fox squirrel or not. I was to busy putting the fire out on my face! :rotf: True story!

 

[M. De Land]

I do remember my cousin howling with mirth though!
But I also recall the day he shot a loading rod through the grainery wall across the road on his farm. He says "hey did you see that flash, wonder what that was", When he tried to reload he found out, then it was my turn to howl with laughter!

 

[George]

There's a thread in the General Muzzleloading Forum right now about unique/unusual targets. You should post that tale there, I don't believe granaries as a target have been mentioned yet.

Spence

 

[M. De Land]

I found General Julian Hatcher's book and chapter 20, entitled "Bullets from the Sky" on what to expect from falling bullets.
He did extensive study and testing on the 150 grain service bullet fired vertically and inclination adjusted for wind to get the bullet to drop back as closely as possible to the firing point.
They discovered that the bullet almost always came down base first and the maximum velocity possible was about 300 feet per second even if shot downward from a very high airplane. The falling service bullet will deliver about 30 foot pounds of striking energy. 60 fps of energy is required to make a disabling wound.
They had two bullets strike in a galvanized empty water bucket and it barely made a dent in the bottom. One bullet struck the thwart of the boat they used to get to the firing station in the middle of a large pond and it left a little dent in the soft pine.
Maximum range of the service 150 grain spire point bullet is 1 and 9/10 miles at and angle of 29 degrees. Any more or less and it falls shorter.
The bullets would reach a calculated height of 9000 feet before the turn back to earth and the whole flight up and back averaged 55 seconds.
I conclude that a 150 grain ball shot at a high angle in a squirrel woods is not a lethal threat to any living thing should it happen to strike after it has spent it's fired energy. As said before,a ricochet off a limb is an entirely different matter.

 

[Gene L]

I read a book back in the 70s about a forensic investigator (or maybe a detective) who was driving to NY PD behind a car where the driver suddenly crashed. She'd been shot through a back window which was open driving along the coast of NY. A long investigation determined that a guy in a boat who shot at a shark on the ocean with a .303 and due to a series of unfortunate incidents, the bullet ricocheted off the water, penetrated the open window of a car in motion, and killed a woman, who was shot in the head.

If she'd had her window closed, I doubt the penetration would have killed her.

He was charged and i think convicted of an offense. Goes to show you what a random shot can happen.

 

[M. De Land]

That is why I say a ricochet is and entirely different matter.
I forgot to mention that the muzzle velocity of the 150 grain service round is 2700 fps.
Hatcher said his data correlated very well to what the Germans had found with their 8mm Mauser service rounds.
A ball being less aerodynamic than even a butt first flat base or boat tail 30 cal bullet, would probably fall even slower.

 

[tenngun]

I remember reading that. The bullet flew the best part of a mile. The path took it within an inch or two of a telephone pole, just beside a holly bush, then just cleared a cement block wall. Her rear window was open and it caught her in the back of the skull. Another foot per second for her it would have been a miss.
Mark Twain said that the unloaded rifle was the most accurate gun. The kid that can’t hit the broad side barn from the inside with a loaded gun can nail grandma at a hundred yards every time with an unloaded rifle. I don’t think a ball on top of 20-30 grains is as dangerous but mind where your shooting. I got to say, I like shot for them tree rats.

 

[Gene L]

That is why I say a ricochet is and entirely different matter.
I forgot to mention that the muzzle velocity of the 150 grain service round is 2700 fps.
Hatcher said his data correlated very well to what the Germans had found with their 8mm Mauser service rounds.
A ball being less aerodynamic than even a butt first flat base or boat tail 30 cal bullet, would probably fall even slower.

Strictly speaking, they fall at the same rate, as gravity demands. The BT bullet will go farther before it hit the ground, but not fall slower.

You can drop a bullet by hand at the same level as you shoot one through a bore and both will hit the ground at the same time.

 

[M. De Land]

Well, aerodynamics, bullet weight , powder charge and air resistance is what caused the difference.
Your comparison works if the same bullet is dropped from the same height and an identical one is shot from a level barrel, not if it was arced upward.
In Hatcher's book different bullets had differing times of flight when fired vertically but the average was roughly 55 seconds.

 

[coloradoclyde]

A 30-06 will not shoot five miles at any trajectory path angle. Hatcher has that covered as well. More like 2.5 to 3 miles on about a 37.5 degree departure angle , if memory serves, which is it's longest trajectory possible with any bullet used.
Completely different when shot at the high angles were talking about in squirrel shooting which I often remember being very high and almost vertical at times.

Back in the 80's- early 90's there was an article in one of the magazines....Some guys in South Dakota (I think) put a camcorder on a small pond early in the morning when there was no wind... They (IIRC) shot from 5 miles away at the pond....It took them many attempts/days but eventually got bullets hitting the water on film...The article had pictures and everything. Their whole point was to prove how far a bullet could travel.....Anyone else remember this?

 

[M. De Land]

I remember reading some testing done at Sandy Hook New Jersey about a century ago and they could get over 2 miles with pretty good accuracy with 500 grain lead,.45 caliber bullets.
A lead ball of course with such a poor ballistic shape would not come close to that distance no matter how fast it was launched.
It seemed fairly relevant to look at these falling bullet tests to get some idea of how lethal a round ball used for squirrel shooting would be to the general public as the largest used would be in the approximate same weight category.

 

[Tinker2]

Back in the 80's- early 90's there was an article in one of the magazines....Some guys in South Dakota (I think) put a camcorder on a small pond early in the morning when there was no wind... They (IIRC) shot from 5 miles away at the pond....It took them many attempts/days but eventually got bullets hitting the water on film...The article had pictures and everything. Their whole point was to prove how far a bullet could travel.....Anyone else remember this?

"Anyone else remember this?"

Yep, working on a two mile prairie dog shot.
The now defunct Varmint Hunter Association mag did some wright ups



William Alexander

 

[M. De Land]

They were pulling your leg Clyde if they said a 30-06 can shoot any where near five miles.
The heavy boat tail bullets will go the farthest but not any where near that far.
I doubt even the 50 BMG cartridge with it's standard 750 grain boat tail will make five miles.

 

[timothy prouty]

HEY guys aren't we getting off the subject since he ask about calibers for squirrel rifle and not how far a bullet can travel