Need Identification of Old Rifle

[KYates01]

Hello Members- I just became a member of the forum so I’d like to say hello,from Tennessee. I am in the process of cleaning up and quasi-restoring an old percussion rifle.
I have read former discussions on the rifles with “Bluegrass” brand locks from Belknap
Hardware. The description of my rifle is as follows: Bluegrass percussion lock, steel or iron fittings, 29” octagon barrel that is rifled and in .354 caliber, double set trigger, patch box, and long stock. I’ll try to take some pics of the rifle tomorrow after I reassemble for photos. The rifle is missing barrel bands, has separate fore stock, missing ramrod and front forestock trim. My dilemma is whether I’m working with someone’s else’s collection of parts or whether I have a actual rifle model . Any help in identifying the rifle would be appreciated!
I’ll attach what pics I have until I can take more.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Welcome !
Whatever you have there looks to be pretty interesting !

 

[KYates01]

I took more pics today with parts removed and cleaned up. I did find matching marks on the buttplate, buttrest plate, and patch box lid that were “VIIII“. There isn’t a barrel lock peg, and the ramrod tube looks to be modern as it is aluminu, and other obvious parts missing.

Welcome !
Whatever you have there looks to be pretty interesting !

yessir. Not getting much feedback but thanks for replying! I would really like to get the old rifle put together and make it useful. T.he action, set triggers and all, still function great and the barrel is in pretty good condition , as far as I can see into it. Would be great to fire the old weapon.

 

[user 48679]

Welcome to the fire, pilgrim - we hope that you'll sit & chat for awhile !

Since Belknap Hardware only resold parts made by others, and because of the odd caliber, I would opine that the gun was very nicely assembled/built by a master craftsman prior to the US Civil War.

IMO, it's a shame the builder didn't sign their work - unless there's a maker's mark on the lower portion of the barrel that's normally hidden by the stock.

 

[NorthFork]

Huh? A real original two piece stock reminiscent of that CVA/Traditions monstrosity of a 'Kentucky' rifle. Neat find.

Can't see the bore but from what you've shown it looks to be in fine condition for it's age.

 

[oldwood]

One sign of an old set of parts is that each piece ,ie. butt plate , toe plate , cap box , etc. ,all have hash marks to index them to a specific rifle being built. A common practice where multiple guns being built , so as to not mix up already fit parts. Had an old Pittsburgh rifle marked in such a fashion. ...........oldwood

 

[KYates01]

I took more pics today with parts removed and cleaned up. I did find matching marks on the buttplate, buttrest plate, and patch box lid that were “VIIII“. There isn’t a barrel lock peg, and the ramrod tube looks to be modern as it is aluminu, and other obvious parts missing.[ATTACH

Welcome to the fire, pilgrim - we hope that you'll sit & chat for awhile !

Since Belknap Hardware only resold parts made by others, and because of the odd caliber, I would opine that the gun was very nicely assembled/built by a master craftsman prior to the US Civil War.

IMO, it's a shame the builder didn't sign their work - unless there's a maker's mark on the lower portion of the barrel that's normally hidden by the stock.

Thanks for the input! I looked barrel over closely but I’ll look harder and with better glasses! I’m going to add a few more pics to include the bore end of barrel, dimensions, etc. There was more rust under barrel but may be able to raise some markings with a little more brass brushing. The rifle has been in the family, normally hidden in corners of closets for the last 7-8 decades and no one ever tried to restore or complete the assembly. I also have what I feel is the original powder horn somewhere around house!

=full]52909[/ATTACH]View attachment 52903View attachment 52907View attachment 52910View attachment 52908View attachment 52909

 

[KYates01]

One sign of an old set of parts is that each piece ,ie. butt plate , toe plate , cap box , etc. ,all have hash marks to index them to a specific rifle being built. A common practice where multiple guns being built , so as to not mix up already fit parts. Had an old Pittsburgh rifle marked in such a fashion. ...........oldwood

Great information! Makes sense!

 

[KYates01]

Huh? A real original two piece stock reminiscent of that CVA/Traditions monstrosity of a 'Kentucky' rifle. Neat find.

Can't see the bore but from what you've shown it looks to be in fine condition for it's age.

Thanks! So would you consider it to be in the Kentucky rifle class? I’ll post bore pics later today. When I look for parts to complete the rifle, I definitely want to use appropriate parts from same style of weapon. Gonna have to find a ramrod, couple stock rings, end cap, and front sight. Did most of the Kentucky rifles use the barrel lock pegs?

 

[NorthFork]

@KYates01

No I think you misunderstood the first part of my post. Ardesa of Spain makes a long rifle called a "Kentucky" that has a much maligned 2 piece stock similar to your rifle. CVA and now Traditions imports the rifle into the US. A lot of folks put the rifle down because of the supposed non traditional 2 piece stock. Then you post pics of what really looks like an original American long rifle with such a stock.

As to what school of build, I'm really not sure other than it's from the late percussion era. The late 1800's is my guess.

 

[KYates01]

@KYates01

No I think you misunderstood the first part of my post. Ardesa of Spain makes a long rifle called a "Kentucky" that has a much maligned 2 piece stock similar to your rifle. CVA and now Traditions imports the rifle into the US. A lot of folks put the rifle down because of the supposed non traditional 2 piece stock. Then you post pics of what really looks like an original American long rifle with such a stock.

As to what school of build, I'm really not sure other than it's from the late percussion era. The late 1800's is my guess.

Roger that! Thanks again for input..

 

[TFoley]

Please take a few horizontal - left-to-right - pics instead of the 'vanishing into the distance' shots we've seen so far. Having a constant scale from one end to the other makes assessing the style a lot easier.

Like THIS -

TIA.

Addendum - I have to remark that to me the wood looks extremely 'modern' in texture and finish, especially when seen at the 'join' and the locating hole for the connecting dowel. It does not have the look of a gun almost a couple of hundred years old, no matter how well it might have been stored away.

 

[KYates01]

My thoughts exactly- makes me think someone started a re-stock project from a kit and never finished.I’ll attach more pics to give you a better scale. Thanks for interest!

 

[KYates01]

Please take a few horizontal - left-to-right - pics instead of the 'vanishing into the distance' shots we've seen so far. Having a constant scale from one end to the other makes assessing the style a lot easier.

Like THIS -

View attachment 53161

TIA.

Addendum - I have to remark that to me the wood looks extremely 'modern' in texture and finish, especially when seen at the 'join' and the locating hole for the connecting dowel. It does not have the look of a gun almost a couple of hundred years old, no matter how well it might have been stored away.

I definitely have to agree with your assessment. Someone may have started re- stock on old parts and gave up. My interest is to find parts to complete the rifle and, Frankenstein or not, make it a wall hanger to pass down.

 

[Rudyard]

It doe's look a bit like a restock that lost its way. But all other considered it 's fine. Bands are unusual but nothing wrong with bands ( Or Capucins ) gives you barrel holding & rod pipes on one . Condition of barrel /pitting suggests restocking not pro but quite good and fit for purpose . .. File marks clearly suggest some maker produced a quantity not factory but still large scale . find a rod its all it needs or warrents .
Rudyard

 

[Mulebrain]

Interesting parts on that gun, old parts on a much newer stock

I would double check the geometry of the nipple on that drum. In your first photo, it appears the hammer isn't falling correctly on it.

 

[KYates01]

It doe's look a bit like a restock that lost its way. But all other considered it 's fine. Bands are unusual but nothing wrong with bands ( Or Capucins ) gives you barrel holding & rod pipes on one . Condition of barrel /pitting suggests restocking not pro but quite good and fit for purpose . .. File marks clearly suggest some maker produced a quantity not factory but still large scale . find a rod its all it needs or warrents .
Rudyard

It doe's look a bit like a restock that lost its way. But all other considered it 's fine. Bands are unusual but nothing wrong with bands ( Or Capucins ) gives you barrel holding & rod pipes on one . Condition of barrel /pitting suggests restocking not pro but quite good and fit for purpose . .. File marks clearly suggest some maker produced a quantity not factory but still large scale . find a rod its all it needs or warrents .
Rudyard

Thanks! The “bands” are actually electrical tape I used to keep stock extension in place for pictures.

 

[KYates01]

Interesting parts on that gun, old parts on a much newer stock

I would double check the geometry of the nipple on that drum. In your first photo, it appears the hammer isn't falling correctly on it.

Interesting parts on that gun, old parts on a much newer stock

I would double check the geometry of the nipple on that drum. In your first photo, it appears the hammer isn't falling correctly on it.

It is definitely a little loose at the correct position so I’ll have to shim it slightly. Thank you!

 

[jimhallam]

The "Roman numerals" are, as already said, ASSEMBLY numbers. The firearms were assembled in batches, with much hand fitting required (known as being "fettled up") and once fitted together each firearm needed marking before going for finishing. It was quicker to use a chisel to cut the numbers, instead of having a set of number punches , e.g., II IIII (four, not IV as later used by clockmakers) V (five) VII (seven) X (ten) XVII (seventeen) XX (batches were rarely larger than 20).

In a place like Liege (Belgium) or Birmingham the parts would be sourced from a number of outworkers and then put together by the FACTOR (the "fixer" who had contracts to fulfil) rather than in a FACTORY where the majority of parts were made under the same roof (sometimes called "The American system"). In Belgium much of the work was done by farming families during bad weather, using simple hand tools -- which partly explains why the metal for the lower grade guns was so soft.
This is explained in "English Gunmakers" (Bailey & Nie) ISBN 0-85 368-212-7 or "The Birmingham Gun Trade" (David Williams) ISBN 0-7524-3237-0 or "Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking" (Claude Gaier) ISBN 0-85667-028-6.

The system was still in use in Birmingham until fairly recently, when the old Gun Quarter was practically destroyed by the building of "Spaghetti Junction" - the interchange for the local motorway system. Edna Parker (of AJ Parker - NOT Parker-Hale) told me that she could recall small boys trundling wheelbarrows between the small workshops, delivering and collecting parts, mainly on a Friday when they played hookey from school.

The principle is similar to "cuneiform" writing, dating back to the Sumerians in about 3500BC, where a simple tool or the cut end of a flat-bladed reed was used to press marks into wet clay tablets.

 

[SamTex1949]

I also wonder if the 2 piece stock was a repair to a broken/split that resulted in a small section cut off and the use of the aluminum ramrod/pipe tube used to reattach/realign the 2 pieces now.