Navy Arms Bess question

[Artificer]

Um well no according to Dr. Bailey's book the size and shape of the lock and the engraving of "1762" isn't OK for a LLP.

LD

Just some questions as I may not understand what you are saying? I understand the Cock Screw should not have a hole in it as that didn't come out until the 1770's, but it seems to me the lock fits into the period rather loose size standards?

Gus

 

[spudnut]

A guy at the club just picked up an unfired miriku still in the original box for 400 bucks, not marked Dixie

 

[FlinterNick]

Just some questions as I may not understand what you are saying? I understand the Cock Screw should not have a hole in it as that didn't come out until the 1770's, but it seems to me the lock fits into the period rather loose size standards?

Gus

The main problem with the Pedersoli lock is that it’s not a ‘perfect’ short land repro. Date Marking locks had ended after 1766/67. New Short lands produced would have been made with Tower marked locks only. The border engraving on the lock is too wide and the frizzen spring bend final was ahead the forward bolt. A good shortland 1769 lock would have been marked tower with a 1755 pattern lock. The newer smaller east India locks were not used until 1777 and 1779.

However .... swap out the Pedersoli butt plate with a long land butt plate and change the trigger guard and it’s possible you have a ranger cut down long land 56. Personally I think this is overkill but sone groups demand authenticity to the letter.

I’ve been trying to find a grice 1762 coach harness Bess for a long time; I might just have make my own eventually..... but you don’t get any more British than musket made by kit ravensheers co.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

but it seems to me the lock fits into the period rather loose size standards?

It fits good as a side plate for the SLP, but not the 56 LLP. It's screw location is similar to the '56 LLP but not the SLP

'56 LLP with a little hint of the earlier "banana" shape. Note how only 1 screw is to the rear of the cock, and how the plate extends forward past the frizzen spring....


Here is the SLP lock, that really is straight, with two screws quite visible to the rear of the cock, and the forward screw hole in front of frizzen spring...


And here is the Pedersoli lock...a little of this...a little of that..... is the frizzen spring long or is the plate too short? both?


The problem is the SLP that Pedersoli chose to copy wasn't really a "standard" SLP (if one can use the term "standard" for the Bess, ever) The gun Pedersoli used was probably a British militia musket, misidentified in the 1960's as a typical SLP. Which would explain the 1756-ish dated lock plate, on the shorter musket with a flat sideplate opposite the lock, as well as the missing ramrod thimble. It's a better explanation than it being some "early run" of the SLP.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

It fits good as a side plate for the SLP, but not the 56 LLP. It's screw location is similar to the '56 LLP but not the SLP

'56 LLP with a little hint of the earlier "banana" shape. Note how only 1 screw is to the rear of the cock, and how the plate extends forward past the frizzen spring....
View attachment 10265

Here is the SLP lock, that really is straight, with two screws quite visible to the rear of the cock, and the forward screw hole in front of frizzen spring...
View attachment 10266

And here is the Pedersoli lock...a little of this...a little of that..... is the frizzen spring long or is the plate too short? both?
View attachment 10267

The problem is the SLP that Pedersoli chose to copy wasn't really a "standard" SLP (if one can use the term "standard" for the Bess, ever) The gun Pedersoli used was probably a British militia musket, misidentified in the 1960's as a typical SLP. Which would explain the 1756-ish dated lock plate, on the shorter musket with a flat sideplate opposite the lock, as well as the missing ramrod thimble. It's a better explanation than it being some "early run" of the SLP.

LD

Great info Dave

The initial 1769 SLP Bess used the 1756 era lock ?

The smaller lock that shows 2 screws per Goldstein wasn’t used until 1777 and 1779.

 

[Artificer]

And here is the Pedersoli lock...a little of this...a little of that..... is the frizzen spring long or is the plate too short? both?
View attachment 10267

LD

GOOD EYES, Dave!

As much as I study the sometimes very small differences between period locks, I have to sheepishly admit the length of the Feather Spring going forward had completely escaped me...DUH!!

The Feather (Frizzen) Spring on the Pedersoli Bess around the bend of the spring, goes over/just beyond the threaded end of the forward Side Nail (Side Lock Screw) EXACTLY like on the P1730 and P1740 "Banana" shaped lock plates. Guess I've handled so many repro and original P1755 lock plates and so few earlier lock plates, I never noticed that.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

GOOD EYES, Dave!

As much as I study the sometimes very small differences between period locks, I have to sheepishly admit the length of the Feather Spring going forward had completely escaped me...DUH!!

The Feather (Frizzen) Spring on the Pedersoli Bess around the bend of the spring, goes over/just beyond the threaded end of the forward Side Nail (Side Lock Screw) EXACTLY like on the P1730 and P1740 "Banana" shaped lock plates. Guess I've handled so many repro and original P1755 lock plates and so few earlier lock plates, I never noticed that.

Gus

My Rifle Shoppe casted 1756 long land lock is has the shorter frizzen spring and top jaw that's not pierced, however I did replace the screw with a pierced top jaw screw (works much better with the hole).

 

[Artificer]

My Rifle Shoppe casted 1756 long land lock is has the shorter frizzen spring and top jaw that's not pierced, however I did replace the screw with a pierced top jaw screw (works much better with the hole).

I tried to be as authentic as possible when I did a Private Soldier of the Black Watch for AWI reenacting, but must admit I knew the Pedersoli Cock Screw (Top Jaw Screw) was wrong and did not change it either. I had already gone to some trouble to modify both Turnscrew (Screwdriver) Blades of my "Y" Shaped Musket Tool to precisely fit the Side Nails and Cock Screw. I had even modified it by reshaping the "Punch" looking tip so the Worm could screw onto it. After these modifications, I hardened and annealed these parts of the Y Tool again. It was then I found the modified "Punch" looking tip could be used in the hole of the Cock Screw to more easily tighten/loosen it. So......I decided the Cock Screw in my lock was a mid to late war replacement! HC/PC problem solved!

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

These are really only factors for purists. I think that Pedersoli should change to a rounded side plate OR offer an after-market, rounded side plate, and offer a Bess lock plate with a change of two digits on the lock, from 1762 to 1757, and thus give the reenactors more of a "modified" LLP option than the quasi SLP they sell today. There were a lot of modified LLP's in North America during the F&I and the AWI than SLP's. The Napoleonic folks in Europe are using the wrong muskets also, with the SLP.

IF I had the cash (put this on my "winner of the power-ball" list), I'd make and offer for sale, the lock plate and side plate "upgrades" and thus probably sell to most of the folks who are owners of vintage Pedersoli and Jap Bess, who otherwise have no reason to buy anything Pedersoli...since "they already got one" <phrase said in outrageous French accent - See Monty Python & the Holy Grail as a reference>

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

I tried to be as authentic as possible when I did a Private Soldier of the Black Watch for AWI reenacting, but must admit I knew the Pedersoli Cock Screw (Top Jaw Screw) was wrong and did not change it either. I had already gone to some trouble to modify both Turnscrew (Screwdriver) Blades of my "Y" Shaped Musket Tool to precisely fit the Side Nails and Cock Screw. I had even modified it by reshaping the "Punch" looking tip so the Worm could screw onto it. After these modifications, I hardened and annealed these parts of the Y Tool again. It was then I found the modified "Punch" looking tip could be used in the hole of the Cock Screw to more easily tighten/loosen it. So......I decided the Cock Screw in my lock was a mid to late war replacement! HC/PC problem solved!

Gus

When it comes to historical accuracy I always try to bear in mind not to be too picky, especially when I own a miruko and a 1970's Pedersoli, older muskets but my favorites.

but I have to be honest I haven't bought a factory bess in a long time, I only get kits from the Rifle Shoppe for Bess muskets. Once you've seen enough originals, the stock and barrel really stand out over the factory repros.

 

[FlinterNick]

These are really only factors for purists. I think that Pedersoli should change to a rounded side plate OR offer an after-market, rounded side plate, and offer a Bess lock plate with a change of two digits on the lock, from 1762 to 1757, and thus give the reenactors more of a "modified" LLP option than the quasi SLP they sell today. There were a lot of modified LLP's in North America during the F&I and the AWI than SLP's. The Napoleonic folks in Europe are using the wrong muskets also, with the SLP.

IF I had the cash (put this on my "winner of the power-ball" list), I'd make and offer for sale, the lock plate and side plate "upgrades" and thus probably sell to most of the folks who are owners of vintage Pedersoli and Jap Bess, who otherwise have no reason to buy anything Pedersoli...since "they already got one" <phrase said in outrageous French accent - See Monty Python & the Holy Grail as a reference>

LD

what about these dates for the LLP ? I've always tried to avoid dates on my guns, my LLP is blank, it just says tower, I went with the caveat in the passage above.

In regards to the coach harness Brown Bess by Kit Ravensheer; he used the Grice 1762 lock as depicted here. I've been searching for a coach harness bess for years.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Those are fine, I thought Grice was from 1756 to 1762, without a break, so I'd opt if making a replacement lock plate for sale where one would simply swap over the Pedersoli parts, dated 1756

I just bought a vintage Pedersoli Bess, that has been so retro-fitted. There is a rounded side plate, and one of the digits was redone on the lock plate to read 1752....which is incorrect for a Grice lock, but..., it's also a 4-digit serial number gun, that was browned to be a ranger musket, and I'm in the process of bringing it back to "line soldier standard" appearance. So at a quick glance it looks like a modified LLP. (At least the previous owner tried )

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Those are fine, I thought Grice was from 1756 to 1762, without a break, so I'd opt if making a replacement lock plate for sale where one would simply swap over the Pedersoli parts, dated 1756

I just bought a vintage Pedersoli Bess, that has been so retro-fitted. There is a rounded side plate, and one of the digits was redone on the lock plate to read 1752....which is incorrect for a Grice lock, but..., it's also a 4-digit serial number gun, that was browned to be a ranger musket, and I'm in the process of bringing it back to "line soldier standard" appearance. So at a quick glance it looks like a modified LLP. (At least the previous owner tried )

LD

Is it a Kit Ravensheer modified bess ? I know he made a few dragoon / ranger muskets for F&I, one sold on Lodgewood a few years back for like 2k.

I think 1756 is a good idea for a repro given that's the incarnation date of the final LLP bess.

The one thing I could never understand was the differences between the 1740 and the 1756 stock. The 1740 stock had more wood but weighed less in total weight. The 1756 LLP was beefed up in the wrist and forearm and total weight is about 1lb heavier.

One Bessxpert from the UK (Blackely) told me that the 1740 forearm was channel was thinner and there wasn't much wood between the rod channel and the barrel channel for the lugs, the 1756 increased the wood, but would that account for the weight gain of the musket ?

 

[Artificer]

IF I had the cash (put this on my "winner of the power-ball" list), I'd make and offer for sale, the lock plate and side plate "upgrades" and thus probably sell to most of the folks who are owners of vintage Pedersoli and Jap Bess, who otherwise have no reason to buy anything Pedersoli...since "they already got one" <phrase said in outrageous French accent - See Monty Python & the Holy Grail as a reference>

LD

I think it would be cheaper to buy a large quantity of lock plates from Pedersoli with no date on them or have them engrave the correct date on the locks. (Kit Ravenshear used to weld up the date on the lock plate, then smooth it back to profile and engrave the correct date on it.)

Of course to make it correct for a quasi LLP, a shorter Feather Spring would also be required,
per your earlier post and an undrilled Top Jaw Screw, as well.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

I think it would be cheaper to buy a large quantity of lock plates from Pedersoli with no date on them or have them engrave the correct date on the locks. (Kit Ravenshear used to weld up the date on the lock plate, then smooth it back to profile and engrave the correct date on it.)

Of course to make it correct for a quasi LLP, a shorter Feather Spring would also be required,
per your earlier post and an undrilled Top Jaw Screw, as well.

Gus

Spare Pedersoli parts are a rip off. A new frizzen is $80 at VTI.

 

[Artificer]

Spare Pedersoli parts are a rip off. A new frizzen is $80 at VTI.

OK, for full disclosure, I have to state that I know the owner of VTI a little bit and have done business with him over the years. He informed me the high cost of Pedersoli parts was due to both the fairly small demand for those parts and thus he would not order larger quantities, plus Pedersoli charges more for their parts.

In some cases because of those high prices, American entrepreneurs have been able to make some spare parts for the Pedersoli Bess and make money, because their prices were lower than from Pedersoli.

However, I think it would be cheaper to get the locks LD mentioned and especially since he would buy in large quantities, after he hit the lottery.

Right now to change the date on the lock plate, it would probably be cheaper to do it the way Kit Ravenshear did and I posted above.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

OK, for full disclosure, I have to state that I know the owner of VTI a little bit and have done business with him over the years. He informed me the high cost of Pedersoli parts was due to both the fairly small demand for those parts and thus he would not order larger quantities, plus Pedersoli charges more for their parts.

In some cases because of those high prices, American entrepreneurs have been able to make some spare parts for the Pedersoli Bess and make money, because their prices were lower than from Pedersoli.

However, I think it would be cheaper to get the locks LD mentioned and especially since he would buy in large quantities, after he hit the lottery.

Right now to change the date on the lock plate, it would probably be cheaper to do it the way Kit Ravenshear did and I posted above.

Gus

What I’ve done for special projects like recasting a lockplate .... I’ve had wax made on repro parts and sent the wax to a local foundry to mold; however I’ve only Done this for myself not to distribute; and you have to find a foundry who is willing to do a very small job.

I’ve never tried this for a Pedersoli part bc I think they’d have issues doing an investment cast legally; however once you change it such as scrape off grice 1762 I don’t see why they wouldn’t.

https://www.reliance-foundry.com/castings/how-to-custom-order

I think Jim Casco of VT historical
Arms is doing wax for these types of projects.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Of course to make it correct for a quasi LLP, a shorter Feather Spring would also be required,
per your earlier post and an undrilled Top Jaw Screw, as well.

Hey that's up to the client..... I'm not thinking of selling replacement butt plates similar to the LLP for the Pedersoli SLP either.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Hey that's up to the client..... I'm not thinking of selling replacement butt plates similar to the LLP for the Pedersoli SLP either.

LD

Good point. Come to think of it I'm pretty sure Kit Ravenshear also brazed a longer piece to the top of the butt plates to make them more correct.

Of course, he also went to the trouble of drilling holes for and inletting for rammer pipes that were no longer there on the stocks, when they presumably shortened the muskets in the period. Great attention to detail or obsession? In Kit's case, I believe the former.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

There were a few styles of butt plates in the 1750's era some were short and just round, I believe they were on the LLP marine and milita muskets, possibly the Wilson musket too.

Some things I could never understand about the British muskets, the stepped butt tangs were pretty long on most models up until the late 3rd model; or at least longer than they actually needed to be.

Locks without detachable pans.

the move on the stock details from comfort to volley back to comfort with the third model.

The barrel loops for cross pins, always requires more wood to work with.

The French really made a better musket hands down.