My smoothbore

[Stumpkiller]

When I was using paper "cartridge" shot loads I would make a seperate internal tube for the shot out of wax paper (I used to do this for the powder on paper cartridges used for hunting - where there was a chance it night get damp). No more than two wraps thick. If you use a dowel narrower than the bore there will be no doubt that the wax paper will tear when the charge is packed down. When I assembled the loads I would make seperate "cartridges": one for the powder and the over powder wad, and a seperate one with the shot UNDER the cushion wad (pre-lubed) and over-powder wad.

To load (I had a 24 hole belly box - so I could carry 12 shots) pull the powder squid, bite off the end and pour in the powder, fish out the over powder card and seat it, pocketing the paper tube. Then, grab a shot 'cartridge', bite off the end, squeeze the tube until the fiber wad is loose, set this in and ram it down while palming the shot roll. Then, drop in the shot roll and pack it down (still in the wax paper cylinder) and set the over shot card over that. My musket used to throw these in about three feet at 25 yards, which was just perfect.

I think the wax paper was more frangible (I've been saving that word for years) and I never found evidence of it holding together past the muzzle. For additional spread, jamb the paper wrappers on top of the over-shot card.

 

[musketman]

Once you made your Shot-Capsules, you could always make a few perforated marks in the length of them using a small needle, not close enough to tear while in the hunting bag, but enough to ensure ripping upon firing...

 

[RussB]

"bite off the end, squeeze the tube until the fiber wad is loose, set this in and ram it down while palming the shot roll. Then, drop in the shot roll and pack it down (still in the wax paper cylinder) and set the over shot card over that."

Do I read into this that you are "seating" twice, or three times? :what:

It would appear to me that if one could dump, dump, and seat only once, his chances of getting two shots off, with a walk up second flush would be greater.
As soon as the rain stops, I'm going to the range. I have most of the real blackpowder I had on hand made up into these capsules I mentioned earlier. I'm not sure how pyrodex would work in my clunker of a smoothie.
I gotta shoot these up...kinda like clearing ones mind.
Too many things going on to concentrate clearly on any of it......
I'm going to start from[url] scratch...again[/url]!
Russ

 

[RussB]

"you could always make a few perforated marks in the length of them using a small needle, not close enough to tear while in the hunting bag,"

MM...I tried that with a tool used to mark leather with before punching it. I believe it's called a "Roadrunner". It makes perfect, even spaced holes when using it on the paper over a soft cloth, however, in practice, the paper capsule becomes very fragile and is hard to deal with (keep intact). Punching it...selectivley, may have some benefits. I'll have to try it.
Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

With a shot load, I seat the over powder, then the fiber wad, then the overshot. Three seperate steps. I'm a real belt & suspenders kind of guy. What I found is that is I don't, the back air pressure sometimes flipped one of the cards and it folded instead of sitting flat. If this happens on the over-shot card all the little balls fall out the end. :boohoo: If you're going to dump it in one chunk, take an ice-pick or scratch awl and poke a small hole in the wads before you roll them to allow tha air to pass through (or, I guess you could open out your vent . . . no, don't)

I take my time when loading a shotgun. A man's got to know his limitations. If I was going for speed I'd swap out the shot for a ball and load it like a musket round with just the paper as the wadding, but I'm never in that kind of hurry when grouse or bunny hunting. I like the wad to have a lube on it to keep the bore soft and load easier. It's going to get tough to load after a few shots with a dry wad, further wrapped in paper making it an even tighter fit.

I also swap out tow for the wad and chunks of paper wasp's nest for the over-shot when I'm going fully insane, er, I mean correct.

 

[RussB]

"I also swap out tow for the wad and chunks of paper wasp's nest for the over-shot "

There ya go Stumps! Mixin oranges, apples, and TOW. Who is tow? Where is tow? Everybody has tow but me. I wouldn't know Mr.Tow if I met him on the street.
You were doing real good until you threw that tow in. I'm going to find me some tow! Somewhere, someday, I too will own some tow.

Now when it comes to a wasp's nest...I have a good one! Actually it's a hornets nest, and I don't realy have it yet. Right now it's about twelve, maybe fourteen inches in diameter and I think it's still "growing" a little every week. It's a nice one, for sure. I thought I might wait until about December, and bring the whole thing, limb and all, home for my Den. I think this one is more for lookin than shootin. I check on it about once a week, and to the best of knowledge there ain't nobody but me that know's where it's at. When it was smaller I was very tempted to smoke the hornets and bring it home just for shooting. Now I'm glad I didn't.
I think the rain has stopped and it's time to make smoke.
Tow? Geeez! Why did ya mention tow?
Russ

 

[Stumpkiller]

Tow flax (flax tow?) is what they (Who's they? It's always "they") make linen out of. It's the goodest stuff in the world for cleaning smoothbores, and not bad at rifles, neither.

SILVER SHUTTLE offers the finest in linen thread, Tow flax, hemp canvas, hemp rope,finger weaving kits, cotton warp, wool yarn, and more. Free brochure. Dealers inquire.SILVER SHUTTLE-MB, 2547 Madison, Memphis, TN 38112. (901) 323-7975; Fax (901)323-8475

 

[makanaut]

Thanks to everyone for all your tips and input. Trip to the range today was succesful other than the showers from Gaston which did pass. My paper cartridges worked great. this opens up a new door in my shooting. I used the FFF powder from the cartridge to prime the pan and didnt notice a whole lot of differance from the usual FFFF prime in ignition time. I had one pan flash without ignition. This leads to another question.
Tear cartridge,prime pan,close frizzen,charge barrel and load.
Ramming cartridge home drives fouling into vent. Cant pick vent
because frizzen is already closed. I normally load barrel then pick then prime pan. So with paper cartridges what is the key for reliability? Thanks again.

 

[Rebel]

Well first off it is NOT A GOOD IDEA to prime the pan first. Too much chance of the gun going off while you load the barrel. It was ok in the heat of battle, but not a good idea to use in everyday shooting. Wouldn't want to see a fellow shooter get hurt or worse by doing this.

 

[RussB]

This leads to another question.
Tear cartridge,prime pan,close frizzen,charge barrel and load.
Ramming cartridge home drives fouling into vent. Cant pick vent
because frizzen is already closed. I normally load barrel then pick then prime pan. So with paper cartridges what is the key for reliability? Thanks again.

Makanaut...I'm certainly not the subject matter expert when it comes to paper cartridges, but I have burn't up a good deal of powder in the last month learning.
I think Rebel, along with MM, and Stumpkiller can best help you here.
I do feel you shouldn't "prime" until the very last step. Seems to me that not only is it dangerous, but everything get pushed out of the pan by air pressure when seating, and you sometimes get some fouling back out the flash hole....at least it looks like fouling. I believe Stump uses a feather to stop this, but he'll have to speak on how he does this.
As fer myself, I ain't sure there is help. I did get a few shots off this afternoon, probably fifteen or so, but I'm a very long way from being where I want to be.
Day after tomorrow Grouse season opens here. I guess Rebel is all "primed and ready" for the Oregon season but this old fart is not ready, and he's still going whether he's ready or not. Maybe I can get lucky and club one, like using a fly swatter. Or, maybe I can ugly one real good and it'll just fall out the sky :blah:....we'll see.
Russ

 

[Rebel]

Russ, actually i am not primed for much of anything. Been having a lot of back and neck problems and haven't felt up to doing much of anything except try to get over the headaches. Gettin' Old really sucks i tell ya. Would like to go turkey hunting this year, but don't know if i will be up to it or not. Good luck to you and everyone else on there hunting.

 

[Stumpkiller]

It really isn't worth priming until the last step. We're not facing a line of angry British trying to snuff our candles; well, hardly ever anymore. The easiest work around is to make up a "cartridge" containing only powder and, instead of chewing the end off, just fold it back down and put it back in the box after pouring out enough for a prime. I also use a small priming horn. I have a little flat one I wear around my neck if I'm not shooting enough to justify a bellybox and a main horn.

Another good reason to plug the vent with a feather. As you "mature" and develop C.R.S. Disease (Can't Remember Sh*t) it is a visual reminder when you lift the gun or cock the lock that your fly is down . . . er, I mean your pan is unprimed.

 

A agree wholeheartedly on priming LAST. If the tumbler's 1/2 cock notch chose THAT time to break, or the sear slips, the gun might fire as you ram the ball down. If it were to go off, it either badly damages your hand, or the gun blows up badly damaging you or someone else possibly quite severely.
: Priming should be the last thing done, after picking the vent, if that's necessary.
: As far as having paper ctgs. with only powder, I feel this is wasted time and energy. With the ball & powder, the end is torn off, not chewed off & it's then stuck into the muzzle for the powder to drain down into the breech area. This is a 2 second event in a very fast load sequence.
: Sounds as if you've got the sequence down perfectly. How'd it shoot?

 

[makanaut]

Yeah Ill take the lashin for that one. It wasnt the swiftest thing Ive ever done by priming first. I was just cornfused,knowing thats how it used to be done. But your right, safety first. It is a hobby, not life and death. Now that you all have squared me away. Had a great time. I use the NRA 100yd
small bore rifle targets with an 8" black center. At 50yds offhand I can fairly consistently hit black. I have a 38" barreled fusil that likes 90gr. behind a .580 ball. Do you think the shorter barrel affects accuracy compared to the 40-42" ones? My next step is to hunt out some flint shooters. I live in MD, I believe the Marriotsville Muzzleloaders meet at a range fairly close to me. Thanks again fellas.

 

No problem - I've done it too - just to experience the 'original' method of loading & I was very careful not to shock or jar the gun while doing it.
: Barrel length between 38" and 42"? - A rifle wouldn't notice the difference in a way you'd see a result, let alone the smoothbore.
: Smoothbores are a LOT more fun to shoot with someone else shooting one with you.
: Flint shooters seem to have more fun than cap shooters, and smoothbore flint shooters have the MOST fun of all. I've notcied, voer the years, that some people can't stand to have that much fun & miss out on a fun way to make bacon.

 

[Musketeer]

Daryl, those paper ctg's you make look fantastic! I like the tapered shape, makes a lot of sense. I saw a feature in an old BP Gun Digest in which a guy made the standard tube shaped ctg., but he dipped the tied-off ball end(I mean the ball is seperated from the powder by a string) in a half and half mixture of beeswax and Crisco. After biting off the powder end and dumping the powder, you tear off the rest of the paper above the tie-off string, drop it down the bore as a wad, then load the ball (which is encased in wax-Crisco covered paper)after it. Have you ever tried this method? If so, does it offer any advantages? I've always just used the powder/felt wad/patched RB method, but I'm becoming more interested in the paper ctg. Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I've done this - but found it was better if I made an inner tube of wax paper for the powder. Otherwise, my ball lube leeched into the powder if I left them sit around too long.

 

Not quite that method- first of all, I don't tie anything off with string or thread as it isn't necessary. Secondly, the inner tube also isn't necessary. What I did was to dip the ball end of the paper ctg. in melted lube and let it solidify. This was BP lube, which is slightly softer than modern bullet lube. If you need some and don't want to make it yourself, Lyman makes a good BP lube as does OxYoke, and SPG, all available from Trackofthewolf. I also tried wiping Moose Snot around the ball's end and that seemed to work just as well, but ov course, was messy to handle while loading. From 5 to 20 shots can be fired without lube, depending on the fit, but by then the bore is very badly fouled and in need of a good swabbing.
: The Lyman lube is very good for cg. guns as well, as is the SPG, but I haven't tried the OxYoke yet, which seems like a slightly stiffer bore butter - smell and colour is identical.
: I merely dipped the ctg. ball end in the lube. I rip the small end off wiht my teeth, shove it into the bore, and by the time the rod is out, the powder has drained into the breech. I then push the ball, lube and paper down onto the powder. The extra paer of the tube helps seal pressure behind the ball and MUST help with the accuracy as they are quite acurate at 100 meters & in a large bore rifle, shoot just as well as patched ball. My contention is that shoving it ALL down, must help seal, as there is no blow=by with a tigh combo & the lube helps with fouling. I've never had the paoer start to burn, which could easily happen if there was blowby.

 

[Wes/Tex]

My results have run about the same as Daryl. Have tried many versions of lubes through the years and so far haven't found any better than SPG though a couple have come close. One effort I read about was entertaining since the lad was using .63" balls in a .75 bore. These were bare balls starting clean bore with no patching. He was doing a Ranger thing and ripped off 6 rounds with no ramrod in a minute and got 5 hits out of 6 shots on a man sized target at 75 yards! Pretty interesting. Not real good hunting accuracy but interesting combat blasting!!

 

Sometimes you just have to shake your head and say WOW. I've not tried any of those types of matches since the 70's, but the 14 bore rifle was OK for an 8 second load & fire using it's paper ctgs. I don't think I could keep that up for 6 rounds though, for sure. I'd probalby end up breaking the rod, but the shorter 30" barrel use helps for speed.
: When I first started pursuing a bullet-type projectile for a fast second shot, i wa going in the wrong direction. Switching to the cartridges increased both speed and accuracy. In the 14 bore, they're as accurate as patched balls, but are restricted to 10 rounds without swabbing. The 11th round, with a patched round ball & 3 drams (3F) is OK when loaded carefully, and actually cleans the barrel nicely for subsequent loading with full charges with 165gr. 2F. The 11th round also goes into the group without fail.