MUST HAVE features on a possibles bag?

[Aldarith]

Hail friends,

Black powder newbie here, designing a possibles bag which I will be putting together with my Uncle.


I'd like to ask what 'features' you look for in a possibles bag, whether buying or making so that I might integrate some of them in my design.

Pictured is a nice antique bag that sole a while back which I have been giving a lookover.

 

[martin9]

I normally just like a bag that's not too big.... although I will say the bag for my Jaeger is quite big with 3 extra pockets. It's my main hunting rifle so the bag also carries a drag strap, rangefinder and sometimes a bottle of water.

All my other guns I just like a small bag with an inside pocket. I load out of the bag and every bag has a brush and pick on the strap and well as a bandana tied to the strap and a knife.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Good luck on your project.

 

[Artificer]

Hail friends,

Black powder newbie here, designing a possibles bag which I will be putting together with my Uncle.


I'd like to ask what 'features' you look for in a possibles bag, whether buying or making so that I might integrate some of them in my design.

Pictured is a nice antique bag that sole a while back which I have been giving a lookover.

View attachment 91537View attachment 91538View attachment 91539View attachment 91540

1) Buckle Adjustable Strap (to let out the strap to go over cold weather clothing) with Strap ends sewn to the back at outward angles that conforms to the body.

2) Pouch Flap HAS to have a Button Closure. I prefer a period correct metal Button.

3) Pouch has an interior Divider OR a Double Pouch.

4) Pouch sewn inside out, to protect stitching on the bag/pouch portion.

5)Made from leather that does not need a liner.

Gus

 

[Stumpkiller]

Has to have a hole in it like a pocket. Anything else is a luxury.

My two primary bags are VERY simple. Seperate horn strap. No knife sheath.

What I do instead is modularize the contents.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Aldarith, take a look at the eye candy pictured in this thread to get some more ideas.
Favorite Possibles Bag | The Muzzleloading Forum

There's a nice bag described in the most recent edition of "Muzzleloader Magazine". There's also a fair tutorial on making the pouch in the magazine.

Pay attention to @Artificer's features. these pouches follow and have most of those features. The Pouch with the star is a pattern I got in a leather crafting book I bought at Tandy Leather I think it is still available, but I didn't see it. It is a gusseted pouch with two sections, one small pocket for small items and two small pockets sewn inside.

The other pouch has two sections and one inside small pocket.

These pouches have served me well for a lot of years.

Even if Tandy doesn't have the pouch crafting book, the one of "The Art of Hand Sewing" is well worth the price.
The Art Of Hand Sewing Leather Book — Tandy Leather, Inc.

 

[hawkeye2]

Don't make it too large, the original in your post is as larger than I would go. An inside pocket is handy as well as one outside under the flap but neither are really necessary. Do some shooting to see what you really need to carry and organize that. Some folks carry enough accessories and tools to completely rebuild a rifle in the field and most of them really aren't needed. The bigger it is and the more pockets it has and soon you'll be carrying enough to wear the soles off your moccasins in a day.

 

[tenngun]

As above, less can be more. Bags in the past tended to be small unless they were big. Just today I made a bag based on one in the museum of the fur trade. It’s about 8”x9”. And just a simple bag. Next to it in the book was a double bag about 9x10.
For cheap get your self a haversack. Put in all the stuff you think you need. Take it to the range on treks and hunts. After a dozen times discard stuff you didn’t use. Get you a bag to carry what you used
Go on you tube and look at Black powder tv and Duelist 54 both have good vids on bags

 

[necchi]

I normally just like a bag that's not too big....

And everything Artificer said!

 

[Tumbledown]

You need 2 bags, one for immediate shooting needs (balls, patches, etc) and one for everything else. You won't always need both bags, either.

 

[user 49399]

I only carry a few basic items but I prefer a larger bag. I’ve tried small bags but the larger ones make it easier for me to get to those items. My bags carry enough makings for about fifty shots.

I used to just have items loose in the bag. Over time, I’ve found out that I prefer to keep items like balls, patches, flints and tools in separate containers inside the bag. This works better for me.

I’ve tried putting knives on the strap, but these were always in the way. I’d rather carry a knife in my pocket or on my belt.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

SO...,
Ask a dozen of us, and you may get a dozen different sets of answers. Here's my slightly different take on what my buddy and brother Marine, Gus, gave you...

1) Buckle Adjustable Strap (to let out the strap to go over cold weather clothing) with Strap ends sewn to the back at outward angles that conforms to the body.

2) Pouch Flap HAS to have a Button Closure. I prefer a period correct metal Button.

Agreed, the adjustable strap is easier to use with a buckle, but there is another method using a leather thong. Either way when the weather gets cold you need a longer strap to go over the clothing.

You do need a closure, as if you move quick or stumble in the woods, stuff tends to "jump out".

3) Pouch has an interior Divider OR a Double Pouch.

Yes this works, BUT none of the bags that I use have such. I prefer that if stuff is to be kept apart, that it is in cinch bags held inside the bag. I also use a small, interior pocket against the back wall of the bag to hold the ball bag, tool, and flints. SO..., I don't have two equal compartments, but I do have a smaller compartment aka a "pocket" so it's only a slightly different idea....

4) Pouch sewn inside out, to protect stitching on the bag/pouch portion.

What this means is the bag is sewn, inside out, then reversed for use, so the stitching is in between the sewn pieces of leather. I like this too, but I also like the bag maker to have put in a welt of leather between the two main pieces so that the stitching is even better protected.

Exterior Seam with a contrasting welt... after reversing it looks like this....

5)Made from leather that does not need a liner.

Well yes a thick leather is nice, BUT for some who use a leather more akin to what was available by the time period and the geography, something like Moose or Elk might not be correct.... and cowhide might not be readily available, and would cost, when a local critter would be "free" except for the labor to make it into leather. So I'd advise that IF a liner is used, that it be sewn as part of the bag, not just as a liner, and..., be attached before sewn with hide glue. NOW to be fair..., some folks like a loose liner, so that if it wears out..., it is more easily replaced. A liner is used for deer hide, ground hog hide, 'coon hide, (or even a goat hide), to reduce the stretching that may happen when heavy objects like a bullet bag or tools are inserted into the bag.

Another requirement..., it holds the gear YOU decide that YOU need to carry to keep your rifle and you in one piece. My bag, for example holds a fire kit, small sharpening stone, and a compass..., some folks only carry gun tools and such.

LD

 

[FishDFly]

Good article on bags in the Muzzle Loader that just arrived, lots of historical information, pictures and sizing dimensions.

 

[tenngun]

One caveat on bags. When you make your own a welt ant then turned inside out makes a great looking seam, even if your skills are like mine mediocre at best. And it make the bag a bag instead of a pocket
However many old bags that are know if not completely dated were sewn flat, even from commercial suppliers

 

[Artificer]

What this means is the bag is sewn, inside out, then reversed for use, so the stitching is in between the sewn pieces of leather. I like this too, but I also like the bag maker to have put in a welt of leather between the two main pieces so that the stitching is even better protected.

Exterior Seam with a contrasting welt... after reversing it looks like this....
View attachment 91580

The welt in the seam, like Dave shows above for thinner leather; not only is a very attractive feature, but it also adds a lot of strength to the seams of thinner leather, because you add two more thicknesses of leather to the seams.

Well yes a thick leather is nice, BUT for some who use a leather more akin to what was available by the time period and the geography, something like Moose or Elk might not be correct.... and cowhide might not be readily available, and would cost, when a local critter would be "free" except for the labor to make it into leather. So I'd advise that IF a liner is used, that it be sewn as part of the bag, not just as a liner, and..., be attached before sewn with hide glue. NOW to be fair..., some folks like a loose liner, so that if it wears out..., it is more easily replaced. A liner is used for deer hide, ground hog hide, 'coon hide, (or even a goat hide), to reduce the stretching that may happen when heavy objects like a bullet bag or tools are inserted into the bag.

Cowhide leather was available in most trading posts on the frontier, though like Dave mentioned it wasn't free. However, it could be easily traded for with deer or some fur bearing skins, though that would reduce one's account balance while using free skins would not.

The scenario Dave mentions above seems to me to be an emergency replacement for a lost or severely damaged bag, until better leather could be obtained OR a very poor person who had to make do. If the person was that poor, the wife made the cloth for the family and there's the rub.

It was all many poor frontier wives (especially in the 18th century) could do to make enough cloth for ONE shirt and knee britches or a dress for their children per year, besides other clothing for her and her husband. When they made cloth, it was made and cut so almost no material was left over. I think this is part of the reason we find so little evidence of bags with cloth liners in the period.

Hogs were known to have been brought along on the earliest frontiers, though not everyone could afford them. (There is ample evidence of hog leather being used for period bags.) Even if one could not afford the hog, they could have traded labor or other items for the skin and tanned it themselves. One doesn't need a liner for a tanned hog hide.

Another requirement..., it holds the gear YOU decide that YOU need to carry to keep your rifle and you in one piece. My bag, for example holds a fire kit, small sharpening stone, and a compass..., some folks only carry gun tools and such.

LD

I could not agree more with Dave's last paragraph.

Gus

 

[Kenn]

SO...,
Ask a dozen of us, and you may get a dozen different sets of answers. Here's my slightly different take on what my buddy and brother Marine, Gus, gave you...



Agreed, the adjustable strap is easier to use with a buckle, but there is another method using a leather thong. Either way when the weather gets cold you need a longer strap to go over the clothing.

You do need a closure, as if you move quick or stumble in the woods, stuff tends to "jump out".



Yes this works, BUT none of the bags that I use have such. I prefer that if stuff is to be kept apart, that it is in cinch bags held inside the bag. I also use a small, interior pocket against the back wall of the bag to hold the ball bag, tool, and flints. SO..., I don't have two equal compartments, but I do have a smaller compartment aka a "pocket" so it's only a slightly different idea....



What this means is the bag is sewn, inside out, then reversed for use, so the stitching is in between the sewn pieces of leather. I like this too, but I also like the bag maker to have put in a welt of leather between the two main pieces so that the stitching is even better protected.

Exterior Seam with a contrasting welt... after reversing it looks like this....
View attachment 91580



Well yes a thick leather is nice, BUT for some who use a leather more akin to what was available by the time period and the geography, something like Moose or Elk might not be correct.... and cowhide might not be readily available, and would cost, when a local critter would be "free" except for the labor to make it into leather. So I'd advise that IF a liner is used, that it be sewn as part of the bag, not just as a liner, and..., be attached before sewn with hide glue. NOW to be fair..., some folks like a loose liner, so that if it wears out..., it is more easily replaced. A liner is used for deer hide, ground hog hide, 'coon hide, (or even a goat hide), to reduce the stretching that may happen when heavy objects like a bullet bag or tools are inserted into the bag.

Another requirement..., it holds the gear YOU decide that YOU need to carry to keep your rifle and you in one piece. My bag, for example holds a fire kit, small sharpening stone, and a compass..., some folks only carry gun tools and such.

LD

The practical recommendations & objective suggestions well-illustrate the extensive experience of Loyalist Dave (brother Marine). Read at least twice!

Just a suggestion: if you're compartmentalising or modularising items for your bag, consider pre-loading paper cartridges at home. They'll easily fit in your new bag, & may save time during reloads. There are several applications for paper cartridges which would be way too lengthy to detail here, but they might be worth considering.

Also, a relatively small loading block (holding six balls & patches, for example) could be conveniently attached to the bag for reload simplification. Might be wise to design an attachment point on the bag for this if you decide to use one.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hogs were known to have been brought along on the earliest frontiers, though not everyone could afford them. (There is ample evidence of hog leather being used for period bags.) Even if one could not afford the hog, they could have traded labor or other items for the skin and tanned it themselves. One doesn't need a liner for a tanned hog hide.

Holy manure.... forgot to mention Hog!

Thanks Gus!

The question then is... from where on the animal is the hide taken, and how was it tanned. Yep, hog hide will work, but not from all over the hog... the belly is pretty thin for example. Across the shoulders on a buck, probably no liner needed, but from a younger doe ???

LD

 

[Artificer]

Holy manure.... forgot to mention Hog!

Thanks Gus!

The question then is... from where on the animal is the hide taken, and how was it tanned. Yep, hog hide will work, but not from all over the hog... the belly is pretty thin for example. Across the shoulders on a buck, probably no liner needed, but from a younger doe ???

LD

No problem, Brother. We tend to forget Pig Leather, as most of it available today has been skived/thinned down too thin for bag leather.

Real Seal Skin was also popularly used in the period, though that leather would also have been purchased.

You make an excellent point about where on the hide one should cut parts of the bag, because leather in the belly area will be "very stretchy" and especially so on Coon, Muskrat, Whistle Pig, Possum and other small critter hides and even so on deer skin as well.

Gus

 

[Aldarith]

Wow, so much good advice - the thread has rather exceeded my expectations for sheer number and weight of responses. Certainly a good experience to have!

Thank you everyone for your time and knowledge.

Just picking and addressing a few points that jumped out (though I have read and liked every post so far so you know it has been attended to!)

1) Buckle Adjustable Strap (to let out the strap to go over cold weather clothing) with Strap ends sewn to the back at outward angles that conforms to the body.

2) Pouch Flap HAS to have a Button Closure. I prefer a period correct metal Button.

3) Pouch has an interior Divider OR a Double Pouch.

4) Pouch sewn inside out, to protect stitching on the bag/pouch portion.

5)Made from leather that does not need a liner.

Gus

1. Who makes good period buckles?

2. Very wise, will do.

3. My initial notion was to cut each piece of whatever pattern I use twice and double up on each surface, in this way I can make a main body and at least three very thin, nigh unoticeable divisions. My plan for them would be to leave them empty in most cases, but the space would be there in case a need arose and I could always designate one for a special purpose I didn't know I needed later. This wouldn't cost me a helluva lot more to do and the increase in weight would be negligable, especially if I use a lighter leather for the internal face.

4. Aye, I do like the finished look. I'll be working with my uncle who is an accomplished leather stitchler and so it's bound to be a sturdy looker.

5. This advice really stood out to me - What is your reason for eschewing a liner?
Personally I am not planning to line anything but the underside of the front flap, the reason being mostly aesthetic but to give the additional function of being able to stitch or hang things on the underside of the flap if needed (think fishooks, needles and thread or something similar.) . Also for decorative embroidery when bored in camp. I assume that you have a specific reason for not lining the body, however, and I'd love to hear it.

Good article on bags in the Muzzle Loader that just arrived, lots of historical information, pictures and sizing dimensions.

Would you be able to link myself to the article? Very interested.

Many old bags that are know if not completely dated were sewn flat, even from commercial suppliers

This is OK, the 'period-ness' requirement is soft for me. I want it to look and feel period in most ways but wouldn't eschew modern conventions that might benefit me just for the purpose of making it period. I'm liable to make sure the hardware is period and everything handstitched, also that the pattern is something resembling period, but the materials and method will likely approach modern in some ways.

 

[Artificer]

Well, to begin with I made my first bag in 1972 and made it while sitting on my foot locker in a U.S. Marine Squad Bay. No Internet in those days and there really were no books I could find on how to make them. I didn't know how to hand sew leather then, either, so I used lace to make that bag. I couldn't find deerskin, so I bought split cowhide, which turned out to be a disaster in use, though it looked nice. It was too soft and folded in on itself when I carried almost anything in it. Oh, I did find out later we had a Special Services place aboard base to learn and work on leather in our free time, but I didn't find out about that until shortly before I transferred. DARN IT!!

Over the years, I have come to appreciate 18th century bags and styling, so I sought out help to learn how to make them that way. I do go a little outside of some of the common features, because that's the way I like my bags.

1. Who makes good period buckles?

First let's talk about strap width. Straps were often only about 1 inch wide or a bit narrower in the 18th century, which I don't care for. They always wore a waist coat or outer coat of some sort, but when I only wear a shirt in summer months, I find such narrow straps either dig into my collar bone or roll up uncomfortably. So I like wider straps at least 1 1/4" but preferably 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" inch wide for a civilian bag.

There were two metals they primarily made buckles from, Iron or Brass. Right now I don't have a source for good repro Iron Buckles in the width I like. Period square or rectangular Iron Buckles had a different style than one can easily find. Maybe someone else can help us both with that. Also, I don't know nearly as much about period Iron Buckles, as I do brass. So I hesitate because I don't want to steer you wrong.

I think these MAY be correct, but I'm not sure:

If they are correct, here's the source and they do have a range of widths:
18th Century Hand Forged Buckles - 1" Square, w/Center Bar (crazycrow.com)

What I have used for years because I know they are correct is the "Double D" type brass buckles and made my own Iron/Steel tongues for them. I often choose either one made for waist belts or for military cartridge pouch straps.

Nowadays these buckles can easily be found on the internet, though this one came from Townsends.

Double D Buckles - 1-1/4" – Townsends

More Brass Buckles can be found here and other places:

Buckles (smilingfoxforge.com)

OK, I'm going to stop here so I don't lose this and will answer more questions in my next post.

Gus