Mountain Man rifles

Discussion in 'Rocky Mountain Fur Trade' started by crockett, Sep 21, 2018.

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  1. Sep 28, 2019 #121

    brazosland

    brazosland

    brazosland

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    Thank you again for your very detailed replies.

    “Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can help you with your half stock flint Hawken. That may be a pure fantasy rifle.”

    You final sentence quoted above is certainly true. I choose to think the original full stock was broken in a fight with Blackfoot and since Sam H. was a good friend and I am set in my ways, I had him restock the rifle in his new style halfstock!
     
  2. Sep 28, 2019 #122

    Tanglefoot

    Tanglefoot

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    I don't know how similar this is, but Art Ressel had a very extensive collection of Hawken rifles. I was privileged to examine several of them and I don't remember seeing any Christian Hawken guns in the mix, so maybe we're talking about a different collection. Art was the owner/operator of The Hawken Shop in St. Louis at the time, but he sold out and moved to the NW coast area. Don't know where he is now or if he still has his collection.
     
  3. Sep 28, 2019 #123

    plmeek

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    I think it's the same person. I never saw his collection but know some people that did. I think he had some rifles by Christian Hawken and owned some, if not all, of the rifles in this picture, now in the Jim Gordon collection. I know he owned the "S. Hawken" rifle that is fifth down from the top. Hanson has pictures of it in The Hawken Rifle as Figures 2A and 2B, page 9. He credits the pictures "Collection of William H. Reisner, Jr."
    [​IMG]

    I don't know if Jim Gordon ended up with any of the Christian Hawken rifles from Reisner. Gordon has a Christian Hawken rifle currently in the Buffalo Bill Museum in Cody in his book but none credited to his own collection. Here is a link to that rifle.
    https://collections.centerofthewest...im=1&dmnh=1&ondisplay=0&offset=7&maxOffset=13

    Peter A. Alexander in The Gunsmith of Grenville County has several pictures of another Christian Hawken rifle.

    I've seen others for sale on auction sites.

    https://historicalarms.com/golden-a...-famed-hawken-plains-and-mountain-rifles.html

    https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=446050

    https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=414845

    https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=402109

    Seems a fair number of his rifles have survived.
     
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  4. Sep 28, 2019 #124

    plmeek

    plmeek

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    Yes, you're talking about a different collection. Ressel and Reisner are/were two different Hawken collectors. But you also recall correctly that Ressel did not have any Christian Hawken rifles in his collection. He focused on St. Louis rifles.

    I had thought that Art Ressel had passed, but there is a picture in the August 2019 issue of Muzzle Blast with him in it, pg 62. Next to him is Greg Roberts (not the GRRW Greg Roberts--he has passed) who is the present owner of The Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, WA.

    Rich Pierce who posts on this forum may be able to speak some more about Ressel since Rich is a member of a "Hawken enthusiasts" group in St. Louis.
     
  5. Sep 28, 2019 #125

    Einsiedler

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    Thanks! William was his first name. Yes!!! I believe it was 1984 or 85 he had a whole wall of Christian Hawken rifles at the Texas Gun Collectors Assn. show in Dallas. I swear I remember it was like 13 rifles! ( Could have been all were not C. Hawken but similiar school). I remember being very impressed. Spoke about them with him. He was a very nice man.
     
  6. Sep 29, 2019 #126

    The Crisco Kid

    The Crisco Kid

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    Phil,

    I'd like to contact Jim Gordon if possible. No luck with contact information on the internet but I did find an article about his collection. We winter in southern Arizona. It might be worth a trip to Santa Fe to see the rifle again. He may also be interested in what little knowledge of the rifle I have. Any ideas about how to contact him?

    John
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  7. Sep 29, 2019 #127

    plmeek

    plmeek

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    Here is Jim Gordon's contact info on the flyer for his latest book.
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Sep 29, 2019 #128

    Einsiedler

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    Thanks for that book info Mr. Meek!
     
  9. Sep 29, 2019 #129

    Tanglefoot

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    Thanks, Mr. Meek. I tore up my membership card in the NMLRA when Friendship got autocratic and fired some friends of mine for refusing to toe the party line. Haven't gotten a copy of the magazine since, so I missed that article. I knew that a feller named Greg Roberts bought Art's Hawken Shop operation, and that he's not the same gent of that name who used to run GRRW. I don't have a clue what Art is doing nowadays, though.
    Keep yr horn tip up,
    Tanglefoot
     
  10. Sep 30, 2019 #130

    The Crisco Kid

    The Crisco Kid

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    Yes, thanks for the reference. The photo of the Dunn rifle in your earlier post to Zonie is somewhat like I remember it but it has been over 40 years ago. I thought it had a grease hole and not a patch box but after all this time I could be wrong. I'd love to open that patch box and see if there's some tallow with a finger wipe in it! It's too much of a coincidence for that not to be the rifle I handled so long ago.

    John
     
  11. Sep 30, 2019 #131

    Dphar1950

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    DSC_0020.jpg
    I don't know how they would put a flash channel in before the the lug was brazed or forge welded on. I consider both inferior to simply leaving some extra iron at the breech end. Either would likely plug the hole or it would be misaligned. Note that that nipple seat on this breech design is closer to the bore than the later removable "patent" breeches. This makes drilling the channel far less of a problem. My question is how did the flash channel interact with the breech threads since the nipple is so close the the breech end of the barrel.


    DSC_0020.jpg
     
  12. Oct 3, 2019 #132

    Einsiedler

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    Certainly not trying to change the subject, as I have really enjoyed the Hawken conversations, but I’m a fan of the Lancaster "style" mountain rifles. ( I know theres were discussed earlier in this thread).
    This is my mountain rifle. .54 calibre with accoutrements I have cobbled together. I suppose it’s close to a restocked (for lack of better phrase) government rifle with common rifle lock and vestiges of such furniture. A plain old trade rifle.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  13. Oct 3, 2019 #133

    Walkingeagle

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    That is a fine rifle sir, very nice!
    Walk
     
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  14. Oct 3, 2019 #134

    wiksmo

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    Your "plain old trade rifle" looks great in that peaceful woodland setting. :thumb: Very nice photography with those abundant earth tone colors.

    wiksmo
     
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  15. Oct 3, 2019 #135

    Dphar1950

    Dphar1950

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    I have a 1770 Dickert rifle I really like and will probably make three in a row. But, while many such rifles were in use in the west, for horse back use they are too fragile to last unless very lucky. Horse wrecks happen and things get messed up. Francis Parkman in "The Oregon Trail" mentions meeting two Englishmen and both their English sporting rifles had wrist repairs. The long tang Hawkens were not immune, but they were far more durable.
     
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  16. Oct 3, 2019 #136

    Einsiedler

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    Absolutely !!!!

    I remember a horse wreck I experienced in 1984 in the Gila wilderness! LOL! Horse and I went a bit down a mountain side after the trail collapsed and gave way. I was packing a GRRW Leman 1/2 stock rifle. The heel went into the gravel. And it kinda slid in the rocks a bit. While my noble steed and I did a quick recovery. Rifle was little worse for wear. It did receive a new coat of brass tacks when back home. I still have that rifle. Here it is!
    [​IMG]

    My equestrian feats are now few and far between. So a longer rifle isn’t much of an issue! :D
     
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  17. Oct 4, 2019 #137

    Dphar1950

    Dphar1950

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    I had a horse wreck in a beaver pond about 3-4 miles North of Yellowstone Park once upon a time. I got wet, hunting pouch had over an inch of water in it but I kept the flintlock dry through it all. Don't know exactly how. But I needed to be dried out, it was a little above freezing, at about 6800 ft IIRC, 1978-79. But the lodge was pretty close. This photo was taken out on the prairie. Sold the rifle decades ago and it got restocked later. Don't know why but suspect the wrist failed, even with grain running down the length of the wrist. It was my idea of an early plains rifle at the time. Still valid. Had one of of the 48" twist Douglas "Hawken" barrels they were making in the 1970s. It was REALLY a good shooter with 90 gr of FFF. Stock pattern is off the Helena J&S Hawken. It was also too long in the pull though, brain slip.
    Antelope003.jpeg
     
  18. Oct 4, 2019 #138

    Einsiedler

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    The year before in the Gila (a bit further south) was our deluge year. 1983. I believe that area received all their annual rainfall that week, and then some. Only deer kilt in our camp that year was a small buck. It was shot with a GRRW Leman flint FS Trade rifle in .54 calibre. Wasn’t me who did the killin’. But that was a nice rifle!

    There is no doubt those original rifles took a beating!
     
  19. Oct 4, 2019 #139

    Tanglefoot

    Tanglefoot

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    Purty little GRRW Leman, Einsiedler. I've got one of it's cousins in .50 caliber I call "Lucretia" ("Lucy" for short). One of my friends christened her my "Mud Gun." Said she's as plain as a mud fence. He said that right after me'n Lucy whupped his butt in an offhand match.
     
  20. Oct 4, 2019 #140

    Einsiedler

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    That one’s a .50 also. It was my "Wedding" rifle. It will be 40 the 20th of this month. ;)
     

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