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wb78963

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Good Morning Gabrielp,
A couple of suggestions .
Get the nipple wrench from Track of the Wolf because the first time you get the nipples out it will be hard. I think they have a trained gorilla to torque the nipples and screws down. Reinstall them hand tight with a dab of anti-size compound.
I get powder from Powder Inc. A pound will load over four hundered fifty of your fifteen grain loads and their price includes hazmat..
Get on You Tube and find the Mike Beliveau site Duelist 1954 a wealth of black powder information on shooting, loading, cleaning, improving, and general knowledge.
Welcome to the club you will be reinventing a very old wheel.
Out the door to shoot the Pietta Marshal gunz again and adjust the sights
Respectfully
Bunk
 

Zonie

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IMO, the fear about having something go wrong if there is a air gap between the powder and the ball or bullet is an old wives tale.

Because compressed black powder does seem to burn more consistently, if target shooting is the name of the game and the best accuracy is needed then, that's the way to go.
On the other hand, if tenths or hundredths of an inch isn't an issue, no compression at all is needed on a black powder charge to shoot the gun safely.
 

wb78963

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Hi Zonie,
Not to start a fight, but I will load, in fact just did, with the ball just touching the Wonder Wad with about a sixteenth inch compression mostly taken up with the wad. Ninety eight degrees and 80+% humidity drove me inside.
Air gap may be an old wives tale, but safe instead of sorry is my rule and I do not intend to unexpectedly disassemble my good hand gun or rifle.
However in my dim memory it seems there was a picture of the cross section of a factory .45 Colt BP load with a wad over the powder and a long air space to the base of the bullet.

I know from an impeachable source that APP type powders do not like compression at all.
When using Black MZ, which is a labeling of APP, the ball just touches the card wad on top of the powder. Works fine, makes clouds of smoke, but does not smell right.
RE zero on Marshal number XX17 windage is right on and XX18 I over corrected and am a bit right. Calculations show about 0.02" per inch of movement and it is about 3" right.
Shoot again tomorrow morning.
load 'em heavy boys
They air a'comin'
Bunk
 

Half-Cocked

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Dustin, Mike and Blackie Thomas are my absolute favorite BP you tubers.

I have heard the stories about those garbage aluminum nipple wrenches sold by the other guy. Definitely going to look at track of the wolf or try modifying a 5mm deep socket as Blackie did.

Over 400 hundred bangs per jug! I love that economy vs a min 50 grain charge in my rifle. If I can skirt by with the triple 7 for now that would be good.

I will definitely look at that link for powder. If I do by powder I want to get at least 3 to 5 lbs. I can think of so many uses for black powder including fireworks! Even if it is 3f.

Looks like I may be delayed another week before going to the range. I have been meaning to take my rifle out to sight in but it's going to be 90 tomorrow. I'm fairly certain range is closed Monday and Tuesday. I was hoping to have the fortune of seeing another black powder shooter who made know of a source of black powder locally.
 

51colt

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Those are all good you tubers they won't steer you wrong. I have been using nipple wrenches I made from sockets for twenty years. They work better than any store-bought nipple wrenches I have used. I have some on 1/4 socket wrench, a nut driver if you use a Craftsmen socket you can use a 4mm allen wrench the short end is for extra tight nipples and the long end of the allen-wrench I use toque nipple when installing I carry this one in my bag. I remove the nipples every time I clean my guns and put anti-seize grease on the threads before putting them back on. If you don't want to remove the nipples you should at least unthread them halfway put some oil on the threads and re-toque them. You can find brand name 1/4 sockets for fifty cents each at swapmeets.
 

Half-Cocked

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Literally just got an email from Pietta in Italy! are these guys fantastic or what?

I translated my original message to Italian so hopefully it came across correctly. I basically asked him if it’s OK to use triple seven in a brass 1851 navy.

Their response was yes you can just use a smaller charge in English! Lol.

here is the actual message


Ciao dagli Stati Uniti. Ho un ottone della marina 1851 di Pietta. Posso usare il sostituto della polvere nera tripla 7 di Hodgdons in questo? Non c'è polvere nera dove vivo.​

the response...
Please use less powder if you want to use Triple 7. 18/20 grains
Regards
Pietta
 

Grenadier1758

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@Gabrielp, most of us here on the Forum would have told you the same with respect to using the Triple Se7en powder. It is good that you did verify with the manufacturer a suggested powder value. Note: that should be 18/20 grains volume measure of Triple Se7en.
 

B P Arn

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Literally just got an email from Pietta in Italy! are these guys fantastic or what?

I translated my original message to Italian so hopefully it came across correctly. I basically asked him if it’s OK to use triple seven in a brass 1851 navy.

Their response was yes you can just use a smaller charge in English! Lol.

here is the actual message



Please use less powder if you want to use Triple 7. 18/20 grains
Regards
Pietta
GabrielP, I am glad you checked with the manufacturer about the charge of 777. 12 grains is too light! I read through this entire thread and was going to respond to that.

I started shooting muzzle loading handguns in about 2012. Not knowing any better, I bought a can of 777 at the local gun shop. It actually worked fine, even though I didn't know any better and compressed the charge heavily :oops::oops::oops: The minimum load I ever used was 15 grains of 777, and that was too light, and required a filler. One trip to the range with that, and I was done with the filler forever! use enough powder that you do not need any kind of filler. A felt wad can be made or purchased if you need to take up a little space in the charge hole.

I soon realized I lived about 45 miles from the beloved Track of the Wolf, and started driving there and buying my black powder from them. There was never a problem for me with 777, and I never had any corrosion problems, or trouble with it not igniting. I still have about a third of the only can of 777 that I have ever owned. As long as I can easily obtain black powder, that is what I prefer to use, but if that ever changes I would not hesitate for a second to go back to using 777.
 

Half-Cocked

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GabrielP, I am glad you checked with the manufacturer about the charge of 777. 12 grains is too light! I read through this entire thread and was going to respond to that.

I started shooting muzzle loading handguns in about 2012. Not knowing any better, I bought a can of 777 at the local gun shop. It actually worked fine, even though I didn't know any better and compressed the charge heavily :oops::oops::oops: The minimum load I ever used was 15 grains of 777, and that was too light, and required a filler. One trip to the range with that, and I was done with the filler forever! use enough powder that you do not need any kind of filler. A felt wad can be made or purchased if you need to take up a little space in the charge hole.

I soon realized I lived about 45 miles from the beloved Track of the Wolf, and started driving there and buying my black powder from them. There was never a problem for me with 777, and I never had any corrosion problems, or trouble with it not igniting. I still have about a third of the only can of 777 that I have ever owned. As long as I can easily obtain black powder, that is what I prefer to use, but if that ever changes I would not hesitate for a second to go back to using 777.
Thank you for sharing your experience my friend. I am envious of you. you are very lucky to be that close to track of the Wolf.

You know when I emailed pieta and I mentioned in my broken Italian that it was a brass 1851 .44cal. However the load information seems to be for steel 1851. In either case it'll be here tomorrow and I'm sure I'll be in love with it.

I'm going to use a pietta's suggested triple 7 load and if my cylinder does smash the brass I'm going to hang it up on the wall and buy more.

I was just discussing this on another forum given economy per shot, the look and feel of these beautiful revolvers you can't go wrong either way.

Now the brass 1851 that I have is an entry model. pietta's work is absolutely gorgeous with engraving the handles everything that goes into them on more elaborate models.

I have a list of more pistols I want to purchase from them and I haven't even gotten my first one. This includes two bunt lines (Elmer fudd eat your heart out). I want Remington's. I want Teddy Roosevelt's cartridge pistol. Ich will in a major way.

I took a look at umberties offerings and after watching the factory tour when they spoke to mr. Pietta I knew by the look in that mans eyes and by what that man was saying he is an honest individual who values the quality of his company and his product which he inherited from his father. He is a very sweet man with his accent he says we do all in house that way if you need something like a screw it's no problem I send to you apartment.

they cut out as many of their vendors and started doing things in house to maintain quality control.

I find that impressive where a lot of companies would do the exact opposite. It now takes additional machinery to manufacture screws that are going into a pistol that adds to total production cost.

maintaining the machine to manufacture the screws that you need because the screws that you were buying just weren't up to snuff.

But it's not just screws, engraving laser etching, hand carving the wood, each and every component inspected. They even Mill their own steel.

if you've never had an opportunity to look up the factory manufacturing facility video on YouTube I highly encourage you to watch to see where these fine pistols come from.

Thank God the Italians have had a fascination with the wild West thank God for companies like pietta. I think I'm going to go watch a Sergio Leone movie now.
 

B P Arn

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I agree, you should shoot that brass framed gun as much as possible! Enjoy what you have for as long as you can! If it gets damaged or worn out, it will make a nice wall decoration in its retirement!

I have a brass framed .36 caliber Spiller and Burr replica, I shoot light loads in it, and it is still in perfect mechanical condition. All of my other guns are steel framed, though.
 

Half-Cocked

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Here are pictures of my replica Spiller and Burr revolver, made by Pietta, along with a holster I made for it.View attachment 39430View attachment 39431View attachment 39432View attachment 39433View attachment 39434
Those are absolutely gorgeous my friend I love the leather work I’m impressed. Reminds me the Western movie man with no name. you like them flashy!
Oh boy that brings up a whole new category of stuff gentlemen! holsters authentic holsters and gear including clothing. I hope this hobby never dies this is American history at its finest.
 

smoothshooter

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It seemed excessive when I saw this video and I saw a few videos people doing the same. It was like buttering toast.

main reason I thought it would be useful is the chain fire good to know a tight nipple is better. The other advantage I thought would be I could leave it loaded a week until used without the powder getting wet.

I have so many questions like
what size cap and if I use a light load?

Do I need a filler in the triple 7?

do I need a patch under the ball to fill the space if I’m using a light load?

If using the patch should I still have a large 454 ball and look for lead ring when I load?

also I will be using 2f because that is what I bought for my other rifle. Again brass frame 1851 navy in .44.

I just finished watching the Pieta factory video and I am going to start collecting them as their commitment to quality control in the video is impressive!
It seemed excessive when I saw this video and I saw a few videos people doing the same. It was like buttering toast.

main reason I thought it would be useful is the chain fire good to know a tight nipple is better. The other advantage I thought would be I could leave it loaded a week until used without the powder getting wet.

I have so many questions like
what size cap and if I use a light load?

Do I need a filler in the triple 7?

do I need a patch under the ball to fill the space if I’m using a light load?

If using the patch should I still have a large 454 ball and look for lead ring when I load?

also I will be using 2f because that is what I bought for my other rifle. Again brass frame 1851 navy in .44.

I just finished watching the Pieta factory video and I am going to start collecting them as their commitment to quality control in the video is impressive!
You can leave it loaded for months and it will still fire just fine without grease. I know this from long personal experience. I use greased felt wads under the balls for lubrication and have never noticed any evidence of grease contamination of the powder over the long term, either.
Leaving guns loaded for very extended periods of time was common practice back in the day.

It works best when the chambers and nipple holes are clean AND DRY.

I believe I could load any percussion or flint gun today and have it fire on the first try several years from now, as could others.
 

Half-Cocked

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So i am adding this one to the list of wants.. if I understand correctly this is a more authentic 36 caliber 1851 style that was manufactured for the South.
Screenshot_20200810-023343.png

Round barrel brass back 36 Cal. Only $215 too. I'm am going to wait a couple months then it's time to order some more toys from my Italian friends.

Hard to decide so many nice guns. Maybe this and a buntline? Or buntline and a Remington? sooner or later these things are like Pokemon I'm going to collect them all.
 

jimhallam

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Literally just got an email from Pietta in Italy! are these guys fantastic or what?

I translated my original message to Italian so hopefully it came across correctly. I basically asked him if it’s OK to use triple seven in a brass 1851 navy.

Their response was yes you can just use a smaller charge in English! Lol.

here is the actual message



Please use less powder if you want to use Triple 7. 18/20 grains
Regards
Pietta
Thanks for this. I would be really grateful if you would send me your "thread" on this topic, as there could be insurance problems in the U.K. when using a charge for which a firearm is not proofed -- and the Gardone Proofing IS with "Black Powder only". Perhaps your message to them and their reply.
Grazie mille ;-)
My email (take out the spaces which have been put in to try to stop "webcrawlers) is

j i m @ j i m h a l l a m (dot) m e (dot) u k
 

Half-Cocked

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Thanks for this. I would be really grateful if you would send me your "thread" on this topic, as there could be insurance problems in the U.K. when using a charge for which a firearm is not proofed -- and the Gardone Proofing IS with "Black Powder only". Perhaps your message to them and their reply.
Grazie mille ;-)
My email (take out the spaces which have been put in to try to stop "webcrawlers) is

j i m @ j i m h a l l a m (dot) m e (dot) u k
Not really sure what you need there...
I simply emailed pietta a question. Both sides of the conversation are posted here for view.

If I understand correctly the proofing house that proofs pietta for the UK does this with a rated black powder only and not t7? That may create some type of insurance issue?

I just bought one as a customer and asked them. I am sure if you have any questions for them they will help. As I found out they also apparently speak English.
 

B P Arn

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Thanks for this. I would be really grateful if you would send me your "thread" on this topic, as there could be insurance problems in the U.K. when using a charge for which a firearm is not proofed -- and the Gardone Proofing IS with "Black Powder only". Perhaps your message to them and their reply.
Grazie mille ;-)
My email (take out the spaces which have been put in to try to stop "webcrawlers) is

j i m @ j i m h a l l a m (dot) m e (dot) u k
Why are you interested in pursuing this? What is in it for you?
 

jimhallam

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What's in it for ME? Sounds like you think that I am looking for a commercial advantage. A bit of an uncharitable thought, and FAR from the truth. Is it so hard to believe that altruism still exists, Sir?

It is to try to ensure that IF someone in the UK has a "problem" (breech explosion, bulged barrel... ) with a firearm which is marked "Black Powder Only" when using a SUBSTITUTE then s/he is still going to be covered by insurance. You KNOW how the lawyers for Insurance companies work -- - ANY little thing in order to weasel out of a payment. And it is obvious that using Pyrodex, 777 etc is NOT "Black Powder" -- so that means that people would be likely to be uninsured.
It should be a concern for everyone, especially if you live in a country where lawyers and "ambulance chasers" proliferate. I hope that NMLRA and the Cowboy Action Shooters organisations have covered their backs on this, although I do understand that there is no legal requirement for firearms to be "Of Proof" in the USA -- albeit some manufacturers have tested and marked their products.

I have never used a B.P. substitute, even in a modern "repro" *** -- and when I wrote the R&Rs for our NRA's "Historic Arms Meetings" I included one requiring "ORIGINALS" to use ONLY B.P., to protect our heritage.

*** I bought my first ML pistol at 12 (a screwbarrel pocket pistol -- cost me 3 weeks pocket money), then at 14 a cased 54bore 4th Model Tranter - and my first "repro" was a M1860 Army by Centennial (1962) -- it is not true that Uberti were the first makers -- so I have been handling bundhooks for a loooong time ;-)

Enjoy your shooting.
 

Half-Cocked

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What's in it for ME? Sounds like you think that I am looking for a commercial advantage. A bit of an uncharitable thought, and FAR from the truth. Is it so hard to believe that altruism still exists, Sir?

It is to try to ensure that IF someone in the UK has a "problem" (breech explosion, bulged barrel... ) with a firearm which is marked "Black Powder Only" when using a SUBSTITUTE then s/he is still going to be covered by insurance. You KNOW how the lawyers for Insurance companies work -- - ANY little thing in order to weasel out of a payment. And it is obvious that using Pyrodex, 777 etc is NOT "Black Powder" -- so that means that people would be likely to be uninsured.
It should be a concern for everyone, especially if you live in a country where lawyers and "ambulance chasers" proliferate. I hope that NMLRA and the Cowboy Action Shooters organisations have covered their backs on this, although I do understand that there is no legal requirement for firearms to be "Of Proof" in the USA -- albeit some manufacturers have tested and marked their products.

I have never used a B.P. substitute, even in a modern "repro" *** -- and when I wrote the R&Rs for our NRA's "Historic Arms Meetings" I included one requiring "ORIGINALS" to use ONLY B.P., to protect our heritage.

*** I bought my first ML pistol at 12 (a screwbarrel pocket pistol -- cost me 3 weeks pocket money), then at 14 a cased 54bore 4th Model Tranter - and my first "repro" was a M1860 Army by Centennial (1962) -- it is not true that Uberti were the first makers -- so I have been handling bundhooks for a loooong time ;-)

Enjoy your shooting.
Litigation and liability is something Half-Cocked knows nothing about amigo.

And the last thing this vaquero would want is for his beloved company that makes his revolvers get to a place where there are no revolvers.

my suggestion is contact the manufacturer directly for the incriminating evidence that you need. It is beyond the scope of this forum and beyond the scope of this thread I believe if I'm not speaking out of turn.

Specifically contact the powder manufacturer directly. You may be surprised at their response. In addition any liability is further waived by disclaimers both by the firearms manufacturers and the powder substitute manufacturers.

Besides Half-Cocked is not a very reliable source of information too much tequila.

Oh and one more thing hombre if it is black powder only perhaps senior it means black powder only. Pero English is my second language. Sabes lo que te digo?
 
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jimhallam

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My memory!!!
I just recalled a conversation that I had recently with Paul Roberts (Gunmaker). The first "repro" that I bought was from his father's shop in St. Martin's Lane --just round the corner from Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square.
It was NOT a "Centennial" -- but a "Centennial MODEL" made by "Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege" - a co-operative of manufacturers, sometimes called "CENTAURE". Paul told me that they imported 20. It was the best version of any of the reproductions -- then and now -- as I recall all of the parts were interchangeable with originals, even down to the threads on the screws. There is a good article on them in the Nov. 2007 edition of "Cowboy Chronicle" --

I can attest to the fact that they were as well made as the originals. I bought "Curtis & Harvey TS6" powder in its red tins from John Hall's shop in Chesterfield -- £1 a pound ($4 then) or TS2 for my 14-bore Birmingham-made percussion double which I shot on the Derbyshire moors -- #6 shot at "half-a-crown" a pound (50cents).
I wish that I hadn't sold mine but when I came back to London to teach, money was tight and I was not a member of a local Club, so it wasn't being shot and it had to go. Eheu fugaces labuntur anni! (Horace)
 

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