Moccasin leather?

[Brokennock]

I know it has been discussed before, but usually part of another discussion. If you were to order some leather today to make a pair of eastern center seam moccasins, what would you order? From who? I'm looking at moose and elk leather at various places and there are a lot of options, split, weight, color, grade, and so on. Someone recommended split moose hide, but even that has many options.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[BlackHillsBob]

moose. soft and thick. ive seen them walk through a barb wirer fence and not know it. you cant go wrong with moose and double sole it and put felt liners on the bottom of the inside. your feet will thank you.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

What's the average price difference between elk and moose hide?
Are we talking chrome, German, vegetable or brain tanned hides?

 

[AmandaP]

When I design a pair of mocs, the style and pattern strongly suggest the type of leather I would use. For most soft soled styles, elk or moose. Buffalo (American bison) is nice also...the toughness of bull hide but doesn't dry out as hard, but firmer than moose or elk. If hard soled, a good grade skirting or tooling leather is nice-veg tan. I takes a shape nicely for a contoured sole. If you are a purist and have deep pockets, use a brain tanned leather-$$$$. It is a variable product and quality very much depends on who's elbow grease has been applied. In my experience, it can stretch too much, dry too hard and it's around 3x more expensive. It is nice to work with though! Chrome tanned leather is a modern wonder. The 'German tanned' leathers are, as far as I know, a type of oil tan and have a very nice bead-ability similar to brain tan. I have not seen very heavy hides on the market. It seems to be used for garments mostly. Correct me if I =m wrong, I would love to find this tannage in a 7-8 oz weight!

I know a place selling a nice moccasin weight elk or bison for $6.50 per sf. half hides and quarters.

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

When I design a pair of mocs, the style and pattern strongly suggest the type of leather I would use. For most soft soled styles, elk or moose. Buffalo (American bison) is nice also...the toughness of bull hide but doesn't dry out as hard, but firmer than moose or elk. If hard soled, a good grade skirting or tooling leather is nice-veg tan. I takes a shape nicely for a contoured sole. If you are a purist and have deep pockets, use a brain tanned leather-$$$$. It is a variable product and quality very much depends on who's elbow grease has been applied. In my experience, it can stretch too much, dry too hard and it's around 3x more expensive. It is nice to work with though! Chrome tanned leather is a modern wonder. The 'German tanned' leathers are, as far as I know, a type of oil tan and have a very nice bead-ability similar to brain tan. I have not seen very heavy hides on the market. It seems to be used for garments mostly. Correct me if I =m wrong, I would love to find this tannage in a 7-8 oz weight!

I know a place selling a nice moccasin weight elk or bison for $6.50 per sf. half hides and quarters.

Amanda,
I've been told that wetting the hides and stretching them before sewing them into something like mocs is the way to go.
Have you found this necessary?
BrokenNock is looking to make center seams and although they are the first mocs I ever made (and still make), I wanted to try making Seneca style mocs.
Would you go with moose or elk?

The Sicilian

 

[BlackHillsBob]

moose with felt pads insoles. your feet will love it.

 

[Artificer]

When I design a pair of mocs, the style and pattern strongly suggest the type of leather I would use. For most soft soled styles, elk or moose. Buffalo (American bison) is nice also...the toughness of bull hide but doesn't dry out as hard, but firmer than moose or elk. If hard soled, a good grade skirting or tooling leather is nice-veg tan. I takes a shape nicely for a contoured sole. If you are a purist and have deep pockets, use a brain tanned leather-$$$$. It is a variable product and quality very much depends on who's elbow grease has been applied. In my experience, it can stretch too much, dry too hard and it's around 3x more expensive. It is nice to work with though! Chrome tanned leather is a modern wonder. The 'German tanned' leathers are, as far as I know, a type of oil tan and have a very nice bead-ability similar to brain tan. I have not seen very heavy hides on the market. It seems to be used for garments mostly. Correct me if I =m wrong, I would love to find this tannage in a 7-8 oz weight!

I know a place selling a nice moccasin weight elk or bison for $6.50 per sf. half hides and quarters.

Amanda,

Great information and WELCOME to the forum!!! Always very glad to see/read from a Lady who does leather work.

Gus

 

[AmandaP]

Amanda,
I've been told that wetting the hides and stretching them before sewing them into something like mocs is the way to go.
Have you found this necessary?
BrokenNock is looking to make center seams and although they are the first mocs I ever made (and still make), I wanted to try making Seneca style mocs.
Would you go with moose or elk?

The Sicilian

In my experience, comparing chrome tanned moose to chrome tanned elk is mostly a difference in potential weight. Either hide can be split down to garment weight but moose is more often left thicker. Heavy elk is wonderful and usually easier to find at a lower price. Bison works well also but is less stretchy than either elk or moose. Again, these generalities are dependent on how hides were tanned.
I'll have to be shown what Seneca style looks like. There are many opinions around on who wore what and when. I just make what folks ask for and avoid that discussion/arguments. We can only make our best guess. There are many styles called center seam also. Photos or sketches are best to communicate particular styles.
As for wetting and stretching, for garments yes, not necessarily for mocs as I want them to form around the foot as nicely as possible and aim for a nice snug fit to start. If you get a very stretchy feeling hide you might want to pre stretch it. It's a judgement call.
Hope that helps!

 

[AmandaP]

Amanda,

Great information and WELCOME to the forum!!! Always very glad to see/read from a Lady who does leather work.

Gus

Thanks Gus! I'll be making a site in the vendor showcase soon as I get some extra time. I'll put this info in one spot if it might help folks out.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

amanda p where i get in contact with you? i need a good pair of what you make out of moose hide. my feet are getting old and would love what you make?

 

[tenngun]

One idea is the pack design. Using German is close to brain tan for the uppers then a sole added of veggie tanned. I THINK the snowpack design came from folks just cutting off the tops of centerseams and sewing on a new sole.
This saves a bit in the long run as the ball of the foot area can wear out pretty quick. I’ve had thick soled moccs wear out on the trail in just a couple of days afield.

 

[Zonie]

amanda p where i get in contact with you? i need a good pair of what you make out of moose hide. my feet are getting old and would love what you make?

Keep your eye on the forums "VENDOR SHOWCASE" area.

Amanda just became one of our vendors and I'm sure she will be offering many of the things she makes there.

In the meantime, I suppose she could tell us a little about herself here but really, the topic is about Moccasin Leather, not so much about people.

 

[AmandaP]

Yes, We can continue this conversation in the Vendor showcase as soon as I get more time to get some stuff started there. I keep gettin drawn to here from my email prompts, but really need to do this after work. Thanks! We'll be in touch!

 

[AmandaP]

Yes, We can continue this conversation in the Vendor showcase as soon as I get more time to get some stuff started there. I keep gettin drawn to here from my email prompts, but really need to do this after work. Thanks! We'll be in touch!

amanda p where i get in contact with you? i need a good pair of what you make out of moose hide. my feet are getting old and would love what you make?

[email protected]
360-458-3477

 

[Zonie]

For anyone interested in AmandaP's work and introduction, follow this link

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/stuff-from-harts-lake-trading-post.114357/

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

In my experience, comparing chrome tanned moose to chrome tanned elk is mostly a difference in potential weight. Either hide can be split down to garment weight but moose is more often left thicker. Heavy elk is wonderful and usually easier to find at a lower price. Bison works well also but is less stretchy than either elk or moose. Again, these generalities are dependent on how hides were tanned.
I'll have to be shown what Seneca style looks like. There are many opinions around on who wore what and when. I just make what folks ask for and avoid that discussion/arguments. We can only make our best guess. There are many styles called center seam also. Photos or sketches are best to communicate particular styles.
As for wetting and stretching, for garments yes, not necessarily for mocs as I want them to form around the foot as nicely as possible and aim for a nice snug fit to start. If you get a very stretchy feeling hide you might want to pre stretch it. It's a judgement call.
Hope that helps!

Amanda,
Thanks for the info, it sounds like elk is the way to go as far as the price point for an item like mocs.
I couldn't readily find you a pic of the style I mentioned but I'll look around some more.
Basically, its a type of pucker toe

 

[45man]

I made from buckskin but thicker is a little better. You can tan your own and brain tanned is good but remember to smoke the skins or they get hard after wet. Indians learned it but Eskimos never did so the woman chewed boots to soften.
I made a lot of buckskin long ago and tanned other hides. I made everything from gloves to jackets.

 

[tenngun]

Just a thought. It takes me about fifteen hours of actual work to make brain tan. I made centerseams from a good thick skinned buck. One from the right shoulder neck skin, one from the left.
I wore them on a two day trek in the sylamore wilderness in Arkansas. The ozarks is a limestone area filled with chert set in to the stone to form a saw or ripper like surface. This ground is covered with about an inch of soil. My moccs looked like something akin to Swiss cheese by the time I was done.

 

[AmandaP]

amanda p where i get in contact with you? i need a good pair of what you make out of moose hide. my feet are getting old and would love what you make?

Sorry Bob, I thought I replied to [email protected] will do it, or better yet, give the shop a call at 360-458-3477. We have leather for sale as well as my line of pre made mocs, and of course custom work.

 

[AmandaP]

Just a thought. It takes me about fifteen hours of actual work to make brain tan. I made centerseams from a good thick skinned buck. One from the right shoulder neck skin, one from the left.
I wore them on a two day trek in the sylamore wilderness in Arkansas. The ozarks is a limestone area filled with chert set in to the stone to form a saw or ripper like surface. This ground is covered with about an inch of soil. My moccs looked like something akin to Swiss cheese by the time I was done.

I have had real good experience by adding a brushed on rubber sole to my mocs for trekking. It is easy to recoat the areas that get thin. Not EXACTLY period correct for those very particular about these things but many folks use it. Once it's got a dirt layer on it, it's barely noticeable. Adds $40 to any custom mocs. The glue I use is quite spendy but does the best job I have found. I suppose it could be argued that if some sort of pitch or tar substance was available, it could quite likely have been used. I've seen very old baskets lined with some sort of waterproofing pitch/fat blend.