Mixing Powder

[Juice Jaws]

For some reason I have a couple of pounds of 4F that I will never be able to go through just using it for priming. Was wondering if it would be safe to mix it with 3F. And if so what should the mix be -- 50/50, 40/60, etc. All my loads would be 60 grains or less. Would also use it in my .36 navy with a 15 to 20 grain load. Thanks for any ideas.

 

[tenngun]

Not a good idea. When you mix it’s just a dry mix. Put it in scan and over time the larger 3 f grains will go to the bottom. In a horn as you walk it will happen pretty quick you will end up with a line through your horn with 3 on the lowest end and 4 on top. When you pour you will get a charge nearly all one or the other.
If you have flint shooting friends who think 4 is better in the pan divide your powder up and share with them.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Yeah, I wouldn’t mix 4Fg either ... sell it

 

[Le Loup]

For some reason I have a couple of pounds of 4F that I will never be able to go through just using it for priming. Was wondering if it would be safe to mix it with 3F. And if so what should the mix be -- 50/50, 40/60, etc. All my loads would be 60 grains or less. Would also use it in my .36 navy with a 15 to 20 grain load. Thanks for any ideas.

No mate, not a good idea. Some makes of cap & ball revolvers have used 4FG as a main charge, but you need to check on this before use.
If you do historical trekking, you could use some in a leather gunpowder bag & carry spare tinder in this bag. Also gunpowder is a good emergency fire starter on uncharred plant & fungus tinders. But I DO NOT recommend mixing 4FG with other grades for use in a long gun!
Keith.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Not a good idea. When you mix it’s just a dry mix. Put it in scan and over time the larger 3 f grains will go to the bottom. In a horn as you walk it will happen pretty quick you will end up with a line through your horn with 3 on the lowest end and 4 on top. When you pour you will get a charge nearly all one or the other.
If you have flint shooting friends who think 4 is better in the pan divide your powder up and share with them.

Good post tenngun, I did not think about it separating like that. Always something to learn. I will just trade it off for some beer.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Thanks to all of you guys, will not mix it.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I use it in my guns no problem, it's ok , I have my flame proof suit on today.
I load my guns at 3/4 volume measursm that I would for course grains. Not because it's dangerous no, because performance is ample at that level.

B.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I use it in my guns no problem, it's ok , I have my flame proof suit on today.
I load my guns at 3/4 volume measursm that I would for course grains. Not because it's dangerous no, because performance is ample at that level.

I have often wondered if one took a 1/2 full powder horn holding what was originally 2Fg, and somehow was able to put that horn into an adaptor, and put the whole assembly into a paint can mixer, and fired up the mixer for say 10 minutes...., if the jostling would not result in grains being broken down into smaller sizes and the shooter would then have "duplex powder" ..., powder of mixed sizes?

OF COURSE I'd have to figure out HOW that equates to the jostling it would get riding on my hip, as for how many days and would that be walking or running or leaping about...IF it equated at all? Might just mean that I successfully proved you shouldn't jostle your powder with a paint mixing machine.

ON the other hand..., if the powder didn't break up, then that would show such duplex loads weren't formed over time in a shooter's horn.

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have often wondered if one took a 1/2 full powder horn holding what was originally 2Fg, and somehow was able to put that horn into an adaptor, and put the whole assembly into a paint can mixer, and fired up the mixer for say 10 minutes...., if the jostling would not result in grains being broken down into smaller sizes and the shooter would then have "duplex powder" ..., powder of mixed sizes?

OF COURSE I'd have to figure out HOW that equates to the jostling it would get riding on my hip, as for how many days and would that be walking or running or leaping about...IF it equated at all? Might just mean that I successfully proved you shouldn't jostle your powder with a paint mixing machine.

ON the other hand..., if the powder didn't break up, then that would show such duplex loads weren't formed over time in a shooter's horn.

LD

I have noticed that if I empty my horn or flask a measure of fines come anyway, almost dust.
Oh running and leaping about is kept to a minimum these days and not for the powders sake!

The only example of a gun blowing up I have seen is a muzzleloader rifle with a huge dose of h110 in it. That was after shooting some h110.
All attempts to blow it up with black powder failed.
No way should smokeless be used and I am NOT advocating its use.

I keep asking for evidence that using 4f judiciously is destructive but there is none coming.
That it generates more pressure is by and by. So does doubling up with 2f!
I have experienced good patterns with shot and ball. The bird in my avatar fell to 4f.
I do understand that some powders are stronger than others and mine maybe the weaker stuff. I know the same measure of a swiss fine grade is far to strong in my 45 smoothrifle.
Not to point of blowing up but detrimental to the shot patterns when shot is used. With a ball I get a healthy crack and accuracy to the same point of aim.

 

[EC121]

In the early times(1300s) the original powder was a dry mixture of the components called serpentine. It would separate from bouncing in the wagons on the way to a battle and unusable. Today's powder is a wet mixture that is dried, ground, and filtered to size. Mixing two grain sizes of powder is similar to making the old serpentine in your horn or can.

 

[jimirwin]

4f in revolver would work....except...some will flow thru the nipple when loading & get down inside your revolver. Not a cool effect whenever it eventually ignites!

 

[Grumpa]

In light of jimirwin's post (just prior to mine) which I had not heard of before, I am removing my post. Use of 4Fg in early cartridges is a different game than its use in a cap and ball revolver with an open nipple hole when the gun is being loaded..

Powder in the action is definitely NOT a good thing. Maybe that's why Lyman BP manual no longer discusses the use of 4Fg in these guns.

Richard/Grumpa

 

[Zonie]

Because consistency has such a large effect on repeated accuracy with muzzleloading and cap & ball guns, I think mixing powders, where you have no control over the uniformity of the mixture is a bad idea.

One load might have more 4F powder in it than the next load and this will cause a different velocity which will result in the ball/bullet hitting the target/game in a different place.

 

[jime444]

4Fg will generate significantly more pressure and like most posters, I wouldn’t recommend mixing it. Flint shooters would buy it up, readily.
Saying that, I used to screen/sieve my powder 25 years ago for match shooting including BPCR. That is, pre-Swiss powder days......it varied some, but a can of 2fg std Goex could contain up to 20% 3Fg sized particles and up to 5-8% of 4fg by weight. Accordingly, I never had to buy 3 or 4fg for many years. Last Goex I bought and sifted about 10 years ago had improved dramatically from earlier years. I guess competition/capitalism tends to do that.

 

[nhmoose]

Unless you screen your powder yourself you will be shooting a basic mixture of F sizes. That is the way it is.

Bench and slug shooters who win the big events screen their powder to separate the different f sizes. The manufactures pack it as best they can but every can will have amounts of each F size.

screens= https://www.globalgilson.com/astm-test-sieves

 

[Kansas Jake]

I'm not suggesting selling BP, but if you do, I'd be real careful about who I sold it to as it is a no no according to BATF.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Unless you screen your powder yourself you will be shooting a basic mixture of F sizes. That is the way it is.

Bench and slug shooters who win the big events screen their powder to separate the different f sizes. The manufactures pack it as best they can but every can will have amounts of each F size.

screens= https://www.globalgilson.com/astm-test-sieves

Yes indeed, don't always believe what it says on the tin!

 

[Britsmoothy]

4Fg will generate significantly more pressure and like most posters, I wouldn’t recommend mixing it. Flint shooters would buy it up, readily.
Saying that, I used to screen/sieve my powder 25 years ago for match shooting including BPCR. That is, pre-Swiss powder days......it varied some, but a can of 2fg std Goex could contain up to 20% 3Fg sized particles and up to 5-8% of 4fg by weight. Accordingly, I never had to buy 3 or 4fg for many years. Last Goex I bought and sifted about 10 years ago had improved dramatically from earlier years. I guess competition/capitalism tends to do that.

But not excessive or dangerous pressure yes?

 

[Danny Ross]

So if I am use to shooting 2F, now I want to shoot 3F, I would decrease by 10% I believe is the formula, to get "approximately" the same performance. That is if my gun likes it . SO if I wanted to, would I not be able to decrease my powder charge even further to be able to use 4F as my powder charge? Yeah I might want to drop it even further than 10% below the 3F charge. I shoot 95grs of 2F in my caplock 50cal rifles. If I dropped that load to say 40-50gr of 4F, why would I not be able to shoot/work up a load using it? I can't see it building that much pressue when fired. I get not using it in a flintlock because the powder "might" fall out of the lower setting flash hole because of how fine it is, maybe (?), depending on the seating pressure of the ball compressing/packing the powder.

tenngun: Actually the 4F powder would settle to the bottom if mixed with 3F in a horn or any other container. The 4F being a finer grain would sift/move downward between the larger 3F grains, allowing the coarser grains to rise to the top and set on the finer powder below, with movement of the container. Think of it as a bag of potato chips, the larger chips are on top when you open the bag, the crumbs and smaller pieces are at the bottom of the bag. The more the bag is shaken the more they seperate, of coarse depending on how hard you shake the bag, the more crumbs you'll make and get in the bottom doing that . DANNY

 

[Britsmoothy]

So if I am use to shooting 2F, now I want to shoot 3F, I would decrease by 10% I believe is the formula, to get "approximately" the same performance. That is if my gun likes it . SO if I wanted to, would I not be able to decrease my powder charge even further to be able to use 4F as my powder charge? Yeah I might want to drop it even further than 10% below the 3F charge. I shoot 95grs of 2F in my caplock 50cal rifles. If I dropped that load to say 40-50gr of 4F, why would I not be able to shoot/work up a load using it? I can't see it building that much pressue when fired. I get not using it in a flintlock because the powder "might" fall out of the lower setting flash hole because of how fine it is, maybe (?), depending on the seating pressure of the ball compressing/packing the powder.

tenngun: Actually the 4F powder would settle to the bottom if mixed with 3F in a horn or any other container. The 4F being a finer grain would sift/move downward between the larger 3F grains, allowing the coarser grains to rise to the top and set on the finer powder below, with movement of the container. Think of it as a bag of potato chips, the larger chips are on top when you open the bag, the crumbs and smaller pieces are at the bottom of the bag. The more the bag is shaken the more they seperate, of coarse depending on how hard you shake the bag, the more crumbs you'll make and get in the bottom doing that . DANNY

That is the exact logic that made me experiment and it worked.
Not just one gun on one occasion too!
A pedersoli bess, a pedersoli trade gun, a Artax single 12g, a 1972 pedersoli double and a 45 smoothrifle, ball and shot.
To avoid leakage I keep the hammer on the nipple, of course that won't work on a revolver.

If it was dangerous the industry would have warnings plastered everywhere!

Just be sensible and modest about it.

I have seen many a video of inlines on YouTube letting go. None of the descriptions say it was due to 4f.