Middlesex blunderbuss - brass barrel, or steel?

[Capt. Jas.]

.....that bell complicates the placing and seating of a PRB.......... It is pretty obvious, though, that the BB was developed as a buckshot delivery device and that the patch and ball was not part of the concept.
Pete

Correct and it appears the same could be said for all smooth guns of that period.

Also, if you examine some uncut fowling piece barrels you will find the same type of muzzle flare in side, just on a much reduced scale (ex. a 12 bore flaring out to 9 or 10 at muzzle)

 

[Ken Cormier]

Don't know ant thing about BB I just want to shoot one . LOL

 

[mazo kid]

http://www.flintlockrepair.com/

This fellow also has a neat looking brass BBL BB. and so does http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/

I have no experance with them, but I , also have toyed with the idea and would get the Brass BBL, BB

P

I could be wrong, but IMHO both the guns referenced appear to be India built. I have one with a brass barrel but have only fired blank loads at this point. I have a friend who has one that Bruce LePage re-worked and it is a thing of beauty with improved lines and correct British stamps.

 

[poordevil]

I have a .636 for my 16ga from here:


http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/Accessories.htm

it arrived in 7 days .

 

[DutchmanDick]

I've thought about it, and have pretty much decided to stick to the traditional BB load of buckshot. I ordered a mold from the link I posted above, which casts 8 .250 balls (#3 buckshot) and 7 .375 balls (between 000 - .360" - and 0000 - .380" - buckshot). One mold-full would make a NASTY load for a BB! :grin:

 

[BillinOregon]

Regarding buckshot, I made some experimentally based on descriptions of "emergency" buckshot made by the Boers of South Africa. Find a hollow-stemmed reed (I used river cane) and pour your molten lead into the stem to cast a long, round wire of lead. Cut this into chunks about the width of the wire's diameter. Roll these chunks on a flat surface with a flat stone on top to make them somewhat spherical. Load loosely and shoot, or sew a dozen or so into a tiny bag of light linen or silk. These were called lopers, and when fired from teh Boers' large-bore flint smoothies did terrible work on the Zulus at Blood River in 1837 ...

 

[Cosmoline]

There's no way to know exactly what size ball to use until you actually get the thing. Nominal bore size with these guys means little, as with the Bess. You need to actually have the thing in hand and get at least a rough measurement to know.

As far as patching, it can be done if you just cut your patches extra large. With material enough to wrap the sides inside the bell and get properly pinched, it will load real smooth. Though the easier alternative is to use a bore-size ball and no patch.

 

[paulvallandigham]

MY " People skills" are well above average, thank you. What I don't tolerate as much as when I was young and stupid, is DANGEROUS behavior by anyone over 18 years of age.

I have " Played " with Mortars, of several calibers, or sizes, and with cannons. I have made bombs( whoa- the statute of limitations ran out long ago!)when I was a kid, and did many more things then I would not think of doing today. That's part of the process of "getting old!" There comes a time( middle age, whenever that is) when your body just won't let you act like a darn fool anymore, and you are forced to "grow up". Some of us are just more lucky than others to have reached that age, and are living well beyond it. :blah: :hmm:


What your block on that shoulder of yours took as an insult, was in fact my way to sternly wish this fellow well. I do not apologize for my strongly worded caution to him. (One of the "Responsibilities" one takes with any concept of "civilization" is the responsibility to look out for your fellow mankind, even if you make someone angry doing so.) If I failed to communicate that fact to you, I am sorry you took it the wrong way. The last time I checked, I still put my pants on one leg at a time, and my "poop" stinks just like everyone else's. :shocked2: That means I am human, and just have to try better the next time. :surrender: :hmm: :thumbsup:

I did learn something from all this: I thought these BBs from that company were 12 gauge, and found out they are actually only 14 gauge barrels, or there-abouts. I was going to suggest a top load of 90 grains of powder, but with the small bore diameter, even that is a bit much. 60 grains of powder makes a lot more sentence to me.

 

[DutchmanDick]

What your block on that shoulder of yours took as an insult, was in fact my way to sternly wish this fellow well. I do not apologize for my strongly worded caution to him. (One of the "Responsibilities" one takes with any concept of "civilization" is the responsibility to look out for your fellow mankind, even if you make someone angry doing so.) If I failed to communicate that fact to you, I am sorry you took it the wrong way.

And I apologize if I took you wrong. The way you worded it, it sounded like you were telling ME to "grow up", and accusing ME of abusing my guns. As I mentioned, I quite frankly think my buddy is nuts for doing heavy loads like that. Quite honestly, I think he should buy a .454 Cassull, if he wants that sort of thing, but he has picked .45 LC as his "pet caliber". He loads blackpowder loads for cowboy action shooting. Thankfully, he uses bullets that are radically, noticeably different in his CAS loads than the ones he uses in his Redhawk, so you can tell at a glance what the hot ones are (and he DOES keep them in seperate boxes). In fact, the ONLY time I will go shooting anywhere near him any more is when we're at a CAS match together. I suspect he may be "compensating" for something... :idunno:

Me, I'll take a loud BOOM, a cloud of smoke, and a big fireball over the "BANG!!!" and sharp kick of a modern gun, any day. Until I learned that this was not a good idea, any "200 grain" loads would have been reserved for my buddy. He'll just have to be content with a 70 grain FFg load... :surrender:

 

[DutchmanDick]

There's no way to know exactly what size ball to use until you actually get the thing. Nominal bore size with these guys means little, as with the Bess. You need to actually have the thing in hand and get at least a rough measurement to know.

As far as patching, it can be done if you just cut your patches extra large. With material enough to wrap the sides inside the bell and get properly pinched, it will load real smooth. Though the easier alternative is to use a bore-size ball and no patch.

Actually, MVTCo keeps track of the bore sizes of the guns they get in because they DO vary. Thus, when the gal who took my order listed which ones were currently in stock, I picked the .688 - the biggest one they had. And the howdah I ordered has .629 bores.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a nice service! If it's a true .688 then you have a number of options from Track. Anything from .670 to .675 with PT should be a good fit and load easy. As long as the ball has enough pinch on the material and you cut it generous, it won't slip out. I'm dipping my PT in a stiff 50/50 beeswax oil mix that seems to help keep everything in there. I also added a Bess-style rammer head to the ramrod to help load it straight.

 

[DutchmanDick]

That's a nice service! If it's a true .688 then you have a number of options from Track. Anything from .670 to .675 with PT should be a good fit and load easy. As long as the ball has enough pinch on the material and you cut it generous, it won't slip out. I'm dipping my PT in a stiff 50/50 beeswax oil mix that seems to help keep everything in there. I also added a Bess-style rammer head to the ramrod to help load it straight.

Ok, what's PT?

 

[LRB]

Not directly related, but close. I watched a bud back in the seventies shoot a Green River Rifle Works .50 cal Leman rifle with 240 gr. of FFg Dupont. From a bench rest yet. His butt came off the stool about 4", and he fell to the ground moaning, and his shoulder was bleeding. I thought that was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. Of course, he did not concur.

 

[Chiefs50]

I avoid the " More is better" crowd of shooters like they have the Plague!" There is NO loading data for the .45 Colt that should be used to make it into a MAGNUM. The casing- even the modern ones, has too thin a wall to take that kind of abuse. Compare the walls of the casings of the .44 mag. and a .45 Colt to see what I mean.

As to your question, even the thought of putting 200 grains of powder behind any kind of load- ball or shot--- in a blunderbuss gives me the SHIVERS! STOP!

For sure, Brass work hardens and becomes brittle, and will crack when you least expect it when using too much powder in a casing or barrel made of brass. I would be less concerned if the barrel was made of Bronze, rather than Brass.

So, for your intended use and abuse, I can only recommend that you stick with the BB with the steel barrel.

I would prefer to see you Grow Up before handling any further guns of any kind. You are going to get hurt, or hurt someone else if you continue to think that the laws of physics don't apply to you. Best wishes, Seriously. :surrender: :thumbsup:

I shoot and handload for a .45 Colt (Contender Super 14 barrel. It is a long-standing myth that .45 Colt brass is weaker than other sixgun brass. Dick Casull did all of his development of the .454 Casull with standard .45 Colt brass and he was running 230 grain bullets at over 2000 fps. It is the gun and not the brass that has been a problem in the past. For years the .45 Colt had been offered in non-Magnum sized sixguns with very thin cylinder walls. The advent of the Ruger Blackhawk and Thompson Center Contendersin .45 Colt changed this. There certainly is published load data for these guns that can be used to load the .45 Colt to .44 Mag levels.

 

[Curt LaManna]

I bought one from off the boards here in Brass barreled model. It is 15" long and .75 cal.
I shoot shot from it with up to 75 grns of FFG and not a problem. I had Leonard Day rework the lock and frizzen for me. It's been proofed with 150grns of FFG and a barrel full of wadded news papers.
The barrel is thick! I'm not worried about it bursting. It's a fun gun to shoot!
That one and my Belgian 4Ga Blunderbuss.

 

[DutchmanDick]

I bought one from off the boards here in Brass barreled model. It is 15" long and .75 cal.
I shoot shot from it with up to 75 grns of FFG and not a problem. I had Leonard Day rework the lock and frizzen for me. It's been proofed with 150grns of FFG and a barrel full of wadded news papers.
The barrel is thick! I'm not worried about it bursting. It's a fun gun to shoot!
That one and my Belgian 4Ga Blunderbuss.

Nice looking guns! Do you use the 4-bore for reenactments? Just looking at the stall and pan guard, is why I'm asking.

 

[BillinOregon]

AZ: Handsome guns! They look like they'd be a ball to shoot, and if some two-legged varmint was trying to get into the house, it's "Repel all boarders, mateys."
ARRRR!

 

[matt denison]

The perpetual "myth" about weak .45 Colt brass comes from the fact that up until 40 + - years ago they (original brass) was baloon style. This made the head weak and prone to blow with heavy loads of smokeless. Not anymore, they don't make 'em like that anymore. I have seen/shot many modern .45's with stout loads for sillouettes. Not my cuppa tea but there it is. You still have to match the load to the shooting platform. Ruber black hawk, Contenders, etc. Not much fun in a SAA. They'll break your middle finger on the trigger guard.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you looked at the Brass casings for the .454 Casull? The ones I have seen have the thicker walls we see in the .44 magnum casings, not the thinner walls of the .45 colt, or .44-40.

Ruger, and now Smith & Wesson have come out with their huge, heavy, revolvers, to cut down on the Products Liability lawsuits they have been plagued with when people overload these older cartridges and the revolvers designed to digest them. The " More is better" crowd is KNOWN to immediately run out and buy these BIGGER, BETTER guns, and those cartridges, and stop abusing the older designs. Its a business decision made to keep the company in business that they have chambered the Super Blackhawk, the Redhawk, and the new .500 S&W revolver-whatever its called-- to seduce those shooters away from these other strong guns. The stronger heads on modern cartridges, makes a huge difference in how much pressure these revolver chambers and recoil shield can stand. The .44-40 and .45 Colt both date to 1873, and Balloon head casings were common up until WWII. The .44 spl. came to us in 1907, and the .44 magnum in 1956. Dick Casull came out with his hyped up cartridge in the 1980s, if memory serves me well But there have been more cartridges in that caliber brought out since.

The .45 colt cartridge, shooting a 200 grain HP bullet, at about 1,000 fps makes a wonderful social defense load, with minimal muzzle rise, and recoil to interfere with getting back on target. There is no need to load it up to 1,500-1,600 fps, particularly when we have stronger, heavier guns and cartridges that are designed to work at those velocities.

Trying to use 200 grains of powder in a short barreled Blunderbuss with a 14 gauge brass barrel is simply Dangerous, and there is NO NEED to do so, considering the limited effective range of that style of firearm. As someone has already noted, correctly, This load of powder in that gauge is well above even proof loads.

This is off-topic, so if you want to discuss this further, send me a PT. Thank you. The Moderators will also thank you.

 

[DutchmanDick]

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know where the myth came from that the Pilgrims carried BB's? I mean, WE on this forum know that they had mostly matchlock muskets and probably some English lock, snaphaunce, and wheel-lock guns as well, so where did the idea of "Pilgrims with blunderbusses" come from?