Middlesex blunderbuss - brass barrel, or steel?

[DutchmanDick]

Let me start out by saying I don't want this post/thread to turn into a flame war against India-made guns. I've been reading and the most consistent complaint I've heard was about heavy trigger pulls. I completed a correspondence course in gunsmithing from Penn-Foster, so I have the tools and reference material to help me correct mechanical problems like that.

Now, with that caveat out of the way, here's my question:

I have been eyeballing several guns from Middlesex for a while. Which ones I get will depend on how big my tax return is. One of the ones I'm looking at is a blunderbuss - I've wanted a BB ever since CVA brought out their version when I was a kid. Now, MVTCo has both steel and brass-barrel versions. They both look good to me, but I will likely only be able to afford one. I don't have any intentions of firing anything but lead from it, though 200-grain powder charges are possible (I have a buddy who is a recoil-junkie - he loads .45 Colt rounds for his Ruger that make a .44 magnum look anemic by comparison :shocked2: , though they are published loads within safe pressure limits for the gun :youcrazy: ). Brass is a bit less succeptible to corrosion than steel (which is why brass barrelled BB's were often used on naval vessels). So, which one should I get???

Eenie, meenie, minee, mo...

 

[Capt. Jas.]

A great many old guns are being fired today but Kit Ravenshear advised against NOT firing old brass barreled guns. Something having to do with arsenic content over time.

I would not trust what composition of materials are to be found in a india gun. I would bet they vary a great deal.

Since you have gunsmith training might I suggest something of quality like an English civilian blunderbuss kit by Stonewall Creek Outfitters.
Chambers locks and hardware, Rayl barrel in steel or brass (naval bronze, special order).

 

[poordevil]

http://www.flintlockrepair.com/

This fellow also has a neat looking brass BBL BB. and so does http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/

I have no experance with them, but I , also have toyed with the idea and would get the Brass BBL, BB

P

 

[paulvallandigham]

I avoid the " More is better" crowd of shooters like they have the Plague!" There is NO loading data for the .45 Colt that should be used to make it into a MAGNUM. The casing- even the modern ones, has too thin a wall to take that kind of abuse. Compare the walls of the casings of the .44 mag. and a .45 Colt to see what I mean.

As to your question, even the thought of putting 200 grains of powder behind any kind of load- ball or shot--- in a blunderbuss gives me the SHIVERS! STOP!

For sure, Brass work hardens and becomes brittle, and will crack when you least expect it when using too much powder in a casing or barrel made of brass. I would be less concerned if the barrel was made of Bronze, rather than Brass.

So, for your intended use and abuse, I can only recommend that you stick with the BB with the steel barrel.

I would prefer to see you Grow Up before handling any further guns of any kind. You are going to get hurt, or hurt someone else if you continue to think that the laws of physics don't apply to you. Best wishes, Seriously. :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[DutchmanDick]

I avoid the " More is better" crowd of shooters like they have the Plague!" There is NO loading data for the .45 Colt that should be used to make it into a MAGNUM. The casing- even the modern ones, has too thin a wall to take that kind of abuse. Compare the walls of the casings of the .44 mag. and a .45 Colt to see what I mean.

His loads come straight out of a published loading manual, which I have personally seen. Don't remember which one, though. I thought he was nuts, too. The loads were listed specifically for the Ruger Redhawk Super Redhawk.

As to your question, even the thought of putting 200 grains of powder behind any kind of load- ball or shot--- in a blunderbuss gives me the SHIVERS! STOP!

For sure, Brass work hardens and becomes brittle, and will crack when you least expect it when using too much powder in a casing or barrel made of brass. I would be less concerned if the barrel was made of Bronze, rather than Brass.

Honestly hadn't thought about the work hardening. Never heard about that being a problem in brass-barrelled guns before.

So, for your intended use and abuse, I can only recommend that you stick with the BB with the steel barrel.

I would prefer to see you Grow Up before handling any further guns of any kind. You are going to get hurt, or hurt someone else if you continue to think that the laws of physics don't apply to you. Best wishes, Seriously. :surrender: :thumbsup:

Quite frankly I find that to be unnecessarily insulting. I do NOT abuse my guns. I have read about 200 grain charges being used in blunderbusses with buckshot charges without a problem. I have never used more than 100 grains in ANYTHING before, and never in any gun that was not meant to handle it. The middlesex guns appealed to me primarily because of PRICE, same as they do a lot of other people. If I could afford something higher-class, I'd buy a kit from The Rifle Shoppe. If the Middlesex guns had a tendency to blow up, I doubt they'd be able to stay in business very long - they'd be sued into bankruptcy. Nowhere on their web-page do they say not to shoot their guns, just to use appropriate safety precautions like any other muzzle-loading gun. I have no experience with blunderbusses, or with brass-barrel guns of any kind, so I was looking for honest, straightforward info - not insults regarding my supposedly low maturity level or ignorance. Ignorance is not a crime - and is curable with an injection of KNOWLEDGE.

 

[DutchmanDick]

http://www.flintlockrepair.com/

This fellow also has a neat looking brass BBL BB. and so does http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/

I have no experance with them, but I , also have toyed with the idea and would get the Brass BBL, BB

P

I believe the one from Loyalist is the same as the one from Middlesex.

 

[BillinOregon]

Rich: I'd go with the steel myself. I think the blunderbuss market is where the guns from MVTC and Loyalist shine. I've wanted one of these since I was a wee bairn, but I can't see sinking $1,000 or more into something I just want to fool around with and get out of my system. Hence an MVTC gun for $500 makes sense to me.
I agree one of the previous poster's comments was out of line.

 

[colmoultrie]

I have read about 200 grain charges being used in blunderbusses with buckshot charges without a problem. I have never used more than 100 grains in ANYTHING before, and never in any gun that was not meant to handle it. The middlesex guns appealed to me primarily because of PRICE, same as they do a lot of other people.

I do not think that Paul was being insulting - just concerned for you and anyone in the vicinity. Middlesex guns have a generally decent reputation when firing blanks or sensible charges - but 200 grains of powder is certainly a heavy charge! I doubt Middlesex guns are meant to handle such loads, and I think you will need to go to a custom maker or a cannon builder before you find any gun that is "meant" to handle a 200 grain charge of FFg or FFFg.

Just because you have read of blunderbusses withstanding that charge does not mean that any particular gun will, and even if it withstands a "proof load" like that once, it does not mean that it will a second time. If you want an effective load, you are probably looking at a powder charge in the 60-90 grain area (that is a guess based on muskets, as I don't own a blunderbuss), and if you just want to make a lot of noise, then what you really want is a Boller, which the Austrians use to fire blanks from and make noise on New Year's:
Dixie Boller

If the Middlesex guns appeal to you because of price - just ask yourself, are you willing to push the envelope with a budget gun? If you are, are your loved ones and everyone else in your vicinity?

 

[John Wasmuth]

I'm still looking and looking and looking for any true articles in regards to these ever exploding guns that middlesex sells. Still havent found any.
Common scense tells you that 200 grains of any powder in a blunderbus, or anything you shove up against your shoulder just aint right, but if these guns were exploding on a constant, or even once, basis that theyd have been sued so far under the courts that theyd still be trying to dig themselves out.

 

[DutchmanDick]

I do not think that Paul was being insulting - just concerned for you and anyone in the vicinity. Middlesex guns have a generally decent reputation when firing blanks or sensible charges - but 200 grains of powder is certainly a heavy charge! I doubt Middlesex guns are meant to handle such loads, and I think you will need to go to a custom maker or a cannon builder before you find any gun that is "meant" to handle a 200 grain charge of FFg or FFFg.

Just because you have read of blunderbusses withstanding that charge does not mean that any particular gun will, and even if it withstands a "proof load" like that once, it does not mean that it will a second time. If you want an effective load, you are probably looking at a powder charge in the 60-90 grain area (that is a guess based on muskets, as I don't own a blunderbuss), and if you just want to make a lot of noise, then what you really want is a Boller, which the Austrians use to fire blanks from and make noise on New Year's:
Dixie Boller

If the Middlesex guns appeal to you because of price - just ask yourself, are you willing to push the envelope with a budget gun? If you are, are your loved ones and everyone else in your vicinity?

I e-mailed Peter Plunkett at Middlesex. He told me that he gets a LOT of people asking what the max safe charge is in the blunderbusses, but few asking what the CORRECT charge is. I'm just as guilty as the rest of them in thinking a BB was meant to handle BIG powder charges. Peter informed me that the CORRECT charge for any of the blunderbusses is 70 grains FFg, based on a .69 caliber bore. He also confirmed that yes, the brass-barrel ones WILL work harden if subjected to overloads rather than the proper charge, and that a 130% overload is a PROOF charge that will wreck the gun if used constantly. Brings to mind the caveat about using a steady diet of .357 magnum in a S&W Model 19 revolver - yeah, it's capable of handling it on a limited basis, but a steady diet of heavy loads will take its toll and eventually destroy the gun.As I said before, ignorance is curable with the injection of knowledge.

As for Paul's response, the concern is appreciated, but it IS possible to voice concern without trying to make someone feel six inches tall. He needs to work on his "people skills" some.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been having fun with a .75 blunderbuss/musketoon that Jackie Brown put together. His barrel is custom made steel and built like a small cannon with very thick walls, but even so 110 FFG is the top load I shoot. At that level the recoil is enough to rip it out of my off hand and hop half a foot in the air. At 200 grains you'd want one of the mega-size blunderbusses they used to use on swivel mounts for ship-to-ship combat. There is some historical support for the use of two full Bess charges and double ball+ for ambuscade blunderbusses, but these were the kind of short cannons you'd brace against a stout tree. The busses made these days are much more like coach guns.

As far as which to choose, go with steel if you're going to make it a real shooter and keep the loads moderate. Under 100 for an unproofed barrel, for sure.

 

[colmoultrie]

I'm glad you talked to the source. Sounds like your friend really wants a 12-lb. Napoleon, but I think you'll have plenty of fun with 70 gr. of FFg. As you note, ignorance can be cured with knowledge, and I'm glad you asked Pete.

 

[DutchmanDick]

The more I think about it, and look at them, the more I'm leaning towards the doglock blunderbuss with a steel barrel. There are no replica 17th or 18th century guns in my collection (even my Northwest Trade Gun is of 1820's styling). I remember, as a kid of about 10, being fascinated by the single doglock musket in amongst all the "Brown Bess" muskets, and stumping the the tour guide when I asked him why that particular "antique" was among the more "modern" designs (he said, "You know, all the years I worked here I never noticed that one before...). Plus, Treasure Island (and the Disney movie based on it) is one of my all-time favorite classic stories, and this blunderbuss is the sort that would have been used in the "golden age" of piracy. Can you say, "Arrrgh, matey"? :grin:

 

[DutchmanDick]

I'm glad you talked to the source. Sounds like your friend really wants a 12-lb. Napoleon.

I wouldn't mind one of those, myself...maybe one day when I'm rich 'n' famous. :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[Cosmoline]

They are loads of fun, for certain. Aiming is a little tough to get used to. No sights and a big bell out there. But after practice you get the hang of it. And a touching group at 25 yards feels like a really big accomplishment.

 

[DutchmanDick]

What I'd really like to do, to make it more interesting, is find a repro spring bayonet to mount on top of the barrel... :grin:

 

[DutchmanDick]

I remember, as a kid of about 10, being fascinated by the single doglock musket in amongst all the "Brown Bess" muskets, and stumping the the tour guide when I asked him why that particular "antique" was among the more "modern" designs (he said, "You know, all the years I worked here I never noticed that one before...").

Forgot to mention, this was at the magazine at Colonial Williamsburg. Like to take my own kids there one day, when they're old enough to enjoy and remember it.

Unfortunately, Middlesex is not only completely out of the doglock BB's, but the ones coming in are all bespoke already, and none of them seem to come in with 15" barrels lately (my personal preference). As I said, though, they all look good to me ("eenie, meenie, minee, mo"), so I ordered a steel-barreled "Dutch" style one with a .688 bore (the biggest one they had in stock). Also ordered a percussion howdah at the same time. That is the extent of what my funds will handle for now, though we'll see what my tax refund looks like in a few months. Like to get the early 1600's English-lock pistol - that would make my 17th century gun for my collection.

What size ball should I use in a .688 bore, anyway? Would the .600 balls I use in my trade gun (and the howdah, when it comes in) work OK with a heavy patch or lots of wadding? Not looking for accuracy, mind - these guns weren't meant for it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Patching can help some, but it won't bridge that much of a gap. This is how I know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W5ZIv_0rCo

:grin:

 

[DutchmanDick]

Wadding it is, then. But back to the question - what sized mold for a .688 bore?

I also plan to buy a buckshot gang mold - found a company that sells them for a decent price: buckshot molds .

 

[Darkgael]

Rich: A few things that I hope you find helpful. I have both the steel barreled BB from MVTC and the percussion Howdah.
I enjoy both of them. The BB with a 70 grain load is a hoot to shoot. Great fun. In addition to there being a learning curve about aiming, the short barrel may take some getting used to. When the gun goes off, everything is right there, not thirty or forty inches away. Aiming - it helps to remember that a BB is essentially a shotgun and it gets pointed as opposed to aimed (sure, with RBs that may be different) Mine gave me a hand-sized group of 00 Buckshot at 10 yards.
The Howdah is also in the great fun category - now - it wasn't when I got it. It had absolutely and finally the worst trigger I have ever tried to pull - both locks required two fingers on the trigger and had to be in the 30 to 40 pound pull area. I dismantled each completely, polished everything, lightened the sear spring, etc. and now it is usable though they ain't four pound triggers.
For a good, well-researched read about BBs, try James D. Forman's monograph "The Blunderbuss: 1500-1900" from the Museum Restoration Service. ISBN 0-919316-32-8.
Forman makes reference to "loading up to 120 grains of powder and perhaps twenty pellets of buckshot" for the guns in question (not modern versions). A more common shot loading was "10 to 12 shots the size of a pea."
The MVTC steel barreled BB is VERY similar to the military BB pictured on page 15 of Forman's work.
Loading round balls.....
Typically, for accuracy in a smoothbore, we want a tightly patched round ball. Good luck with that. It is not as easy as loading a gun with a standard muzzle....that bell complicates the placing and seating of a PRB. I rarely use PRBs but with practice I suppose that I could learn. It is pretty obvious, though, that the BB was developed as a buckshot delivery device and that the patch and ball was not part of the concept.
Pete