Middle Eastern muzzleloaders??

[Flint62Smoothie]

I have wondered why all of the frizzens on these guns have many groves cut in them?

This grooving was also done on early locks like the miquelet and snaphaunce and I had once asked Rick about that in his post titled "Spanish Escopeta", and here was his response:

"The theory of the grooves in the frizzen has been an area of speculation over many years. Personally, I've never found it an advantage or disadvantage. Others say they can use the flint a bit longer between knapping, with the grooves acting as somewhat of a self-knapping feature."

 

[rickystl]

Cool! I bet you have have the full Arabnomadic 'bedouin' outfit too, to go with it, don't ya'? You can tell us ...

Hi Flint

LOL!! No, no outfit and no camel. LOL !!!! But here's a knife that came with the powder flask ensemble. A simple, very common pattern belt knife in Algeria. Still sharp and usable. Just to add to the outfit. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Wonderfull responce & guns .I have just one Mookahla very similar but a complete ' bitzer' ie made from correct but un related original parts and parts I had to make to suit like a new battery & bridle plate , pics later .
Regards Rudyard
PS the correct name for these gun is assurabley NOT' Jezzail 'anything your miles away your are confusing Algeria with Afghanistan there's a lot of dusty miles between them and Iv'e crossed both of them and the bit in between. I am being unkind sorry but it is a common error many make. R

As Rudyard mentions, collectors associate Jazail with the long muskets from Afghanistan. The long muskets from Algeria are often referred to as Kabyle. And the long muskets from Morocco as Moukahla. But these last two terms are often used interchangeably depending on the area of the region you are standing in and the language spoken. It can all be rather confusing. There was much trade between the different countries in the region. But different areas did develop a "general" build pattern for their long guns they preferred.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I remember reading somewhere that some of these rifles weren't fired from the shoulder but were placed against the sternum.

I believe this theory came about due to the shorter butt stocks on many Middle Eastern style long guns. The average physical stature of a European in the 19th Century was smaller than today. And the stature of people in the Middle East/Far East were even smaller yet. That's the likely reason the LOP on many of these Middle Eastern style muskets are only 11-12". Makes them difficult to shoot without a bench and cupping one hand between the butt plate and your shoulder. LOL
If you look at many of the original muskets used in our U.S. Civil War period, you'll notice the LOP is around 13-13.5". The uniforms in the museums look like they would fit a 14 year old today.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Algeria was conquered and controlled by the France from about 1830 through 1900. I've read that during much of this time that the French would not allow the locals to posses the latest in firearms technology. This is the likely reason that the locks can be found dated all the way up to the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century.

Rick

 

[toot]

This grooving was also done on early locks like the miquelet and snaphaunce and I had once asked Rick about that in his post titled "Spanish Escopeta", and here was his response:

"The theory of the grooves in the frizzen has been an area of speculation over many years. Personally, I've never found it an advantage or disadvantage. Others say they can use the flint a bit longer between knapping, with the grooves acting as somewhat of a self-knapping feature."

thank's for the reply. toot.

 

[toot]

Hi Flint

LOL!! No, no outfit and no camel. LOL !!!! But here's a knife that came with the powder flask ensemble. A simple, very common pattern belt knife in Algeria. Still sharp and usable. Just to add to the outfit. LOLView attachment 139244

Rick

I like it.

 

[Rudyard]

I have wondered why all of the frizzens on these guns have many groves cut in them?

Dear Toot. The stryrated battery / frizzens most call them are from the original Spanish copies /interpretations , quite why . But my guess is less strikeing surface not perculiar to any nation but the common ability to re new the faces is good thinking in my view and the short choppy powerfull collision from the flint is generaly sure fire . Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

Rudyard, thanks for the reply to my query.

 

[Arrow139]

Rudyard, thanks for the reply to my query.

I suspect the vertical grooves lead to easier shaving of steel from the frizzen. Also, the flint and hammer are set up with the hammer having a more acute striking angle, giving the flint edge a stronger angle. The one I have gives a shower of sparks.

 

[Packrat]

It’s also said the muzzles were longer to get past the camels nose. Some were also placed under the armpit when shooting from camel or horse

 

[Rudyard]

Iv'e seen Tuareg desert dweller wearing swords in upper Mali on Camels but don't record guns . The Northern regions more mountainous of Morocco seem to be the ' Kabyl' 's which is think is more the tribes who rode horses & thier guns are mostly snaphance guns called by us at least Kabyl's. The Algerian' Arab Toe lock' Ricksie illustrates are generally known as Moukalha's .There are two in the Glenbow museum Alberta with documentation re the former owner a major tribal leader who though beaten in the war was in comfortable exile in France at the home of Marshall Soult from memory . I can check that as I have notes as I worked for Glenbow years ago . Whether camel or horse I suppose they where reloaded placeing the often wide butts on the ground useing the hieght to ease or make practical reloading . I cant see tucking under the arm would be usefull practice but they still make long MLs for ceromonial use so who knows .( Never look for logic in Africa )8 months hitching through Equatorial West Africa taught me that but that was when I was twenty Ide guess Ak s would be more the common gun now.
Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

It’s also said the muzzles were longer to get past the camels nose. Some were also placed under the armpit when shooting from camel or horse

some were placed against the breast also, I have read. still an odd posture to shoot.

 

[rickystl]

Even the few scholars who have studied/written about the early Middle Eastern style firearms will privately agree that they don't know of any "official" reason for the shape of the butt stocks on many of these long guns. While some characteristics are more obvious, others are just speculation. Some butt stocks reflect a more typical European style, while others are dramatically different. The problem in determining these differences arises from the very scant historical written records of gun building throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. There's just not many records.

Rick

 

[DuncNZ]

I have bought and sold a number of these guns over the years , some are known a "Camel" guns , the best was an Afghani rifle which had a typical Afghan curved butt a tombstone rear sight with 5 different range holes in it , it was about 5'6" long , the barrel was rifled but with a very thin wall thickness and hammer marks all along it . The stock was made of very fine walnut , with lots of lines carved in patterns and patterns of dots . The barrel was held on with brass bands . The lock was off a Brown Bess , and there were holes in the wood indicating this was not the original lock . I did some research and found in the First Afghan war the British and Indian troops armed with Brown Bess muskets were slaughtered in large numbers by Afghanis who were armed with matchlock rifles and could sit back 200+ yards and shoot the British who could not get close enough to use their Bess's . I believe the lock on this rifle was off a Brown Bess captured in this war . You can read more about it here First Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia

 

[Rudyard]

Very common to call all such guns' Camel guns ' but its more derisive that accurate Re the retreat from Cabool the Army where in the valley in large groups, The Afghans lined the hieghts and had that advantage .( The Garrisons of Kandahar & Herat stood.) It was only the Cabool garrison that had under agreed terms to retire , But being wogs they didn't keep the argreement. re gun locks yes maybe but for every soldiers musket they had one in store or that was the plan, not I suppose allway's kept too .

' When your wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains. And the women come out to cut up what remains' . Jest roll on your rifle & blow out your brains .And go to your Gawd like a soldier '
From Kipling's "The young British Soldier '

Or to Quote Sir Humphrey Wakefield at the reenactment of the settlement of Nelson in 1992 commerorating its 150 years earlier beginings in1842 and his fore bear Captain Arthur Wakefield killed at an an unfortunate incident at Tuamarina . Sir Humphrey replied "You cant make an Omlette without breaking eggs " On that occasion. I & my gun crew fired three rounds from a 9 pounder Gunnade to greet the sailing ships who in that year brought out the families . Charge 2'500 grains and 3 pounds of sifted loam.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Even the few scholars who have studied/written about the early Middle Eastern style firearms will privately agree that they don't know of any "official" reason for the shape of the butt stocks on many of these long guns.

The Afghans lined the hieghts and had that advantage .

FWIW, as a muzzleloader shooter 1st and a collector of early BP arms being 2nd, I would present the case that some of the highly curved "camel gun" buttstocks, like see on Afghan arms, were so designed so as to aid shooting up or down at extreme angles. If you note, whilst curved, there's not much drop between the axis of the bore and the tip of the buttstock.

Ever try holding, never mind shooting, a musket/rifle that has a lot of drop (think a pied de vache French musket or an offhand Schuetzen-stocked BP cartridge rifle) ) at a severe angle? ... you can't do it ... the arm just falls from your shoulder.

 

[rickystl]

"If you note, whilst curved, there's not much drop between the axis of the bore and the tip of the buttstock."

That's why I believe the extreme curve itself of the Afghan Jazail was designed more for carrying the gun versus shooting. While every example I've seen has at least a provision for a sling, It's my belief that the curve was for carrying the gun under the arm pit while trekking when it was desired the gun be in a "ready" position. Whether on foot or horseback. My reasoning for this is that if you look at the butt stock, it is overly thick at the wrist area. But then the THICKNESS of the butt stock thins dramatically towards the butt cap. If you hold the gun under your arm pit and walk with it, it is a very comfortable carry. That's why I think the butt stock is thin and flat going backwards.
This would be useful while trekking in the mountainous regions, especially since the barrels on these Jazails tend to be long and heavy.
Additionally, as Cutfinger mentions, many of these Jazails had rudimentary type peep sights at the rear of the breech, often forged with the breech plug itself. This tells me these guns were made for longer range shooting, from a rest. Even if the rest was just the rocks on a mountain. Some of these jazails were even made with an integral stand made of wood, iron, and leather.

Again, I've never seen any documentation for the reason for the curve in the butt stock. So I, like others can only speculate. But to me, the curve being used primarily for carry is the most logical I can come up with.

Here are some pics of my Jazail shooter. Notice how thin/flat the butt stock becomes from the wrist area back to the butt cap.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

A period photo aiming a matchlock jazail. Notice the integral stand.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

LOVE the photos and info Rick! I think you nailed it ... but next time out with it, also try holding it whilst on a severe angle!