Mid 1100's -- What Gun Would You Choose?!

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

Alden

Cannon
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
6,476
Reaction score
30
It's the Middle 1100's. You're an Earl fighting over his claim to the throne of England. Vikings, English, Normans...

Is there a gun you can arm some of your troops with for the upcoming battles?
 

nchawkeye

58 Cal.
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
2,331
Reaction score
220
Alden said:
It's the Middle 1100's. You're an Earl fighting over his claim to the throne of England. Vikings, English, Normans...

Is there a gun you can arm some of your troops with for the upcoming battles?

Nope....
 

pargent

62 Cal.
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
2,823
Reaction score
8
Trebershay , bugger spelling it the correct way , went with the new age scared of my shadow and flags and such version . :rotf:
 

Karl Helweg

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
272
Reaction score
1
This is the oldest that I am aware of: http://gilbert1986.blogspot.com/2011/10/first-cannon-in-europe-were-probably.html

It is still later and I suspect that it may not have used sulfur yet so it was closer to a big bottle rocket than a handgonne. Just my guess from the odd design.

EarlyCannonDeNobilitatibusSapientiiEtPrudentiisRegumManuscriptWalterdeMilemete1326.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
20,091
Reaction score
981
Karl, That picture looks Chinese...and as far as my book learning goes in the 1100's guns and gunpowder hadn't left china yet...and wouldn't reach northern Europe until much later...

But I'm open to some edumaction. :grin:
 

Karl Helweg

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
272
Reaction score
1
The figure firing the "cannon" is wearing very distinctive European armour. Specifically those square shields laced on the chainmail at the shoulders are called ailettes and were on European, often crusader, and sometimes, just sometimes Arabic armour from the late 1100s through the late 1200s when they evolved in to better articulated spaulders and pauldrons.
ailettes.jpg

The surcoat, chainmail, and lace across the brow are all consistent to the same times and place.

I know that it not to PC to not credit the Chinese with inventing everything (and using none of it) but their devices seem like just militarized fireworks. It is very possible that the German alchemist "Brother" or Berthold Schwarz was the first person to add the final critical ingredient, sulfur, that made real firearms practical.


"While the ancient Chinese, Arabs, and Greeks were familiar with burning mixtures, it was a Franciscan monk by the name of Berthold Schwarz (Berthold the Black), whose work as an alchemist with a burning powder called gunpowder, is generally credited as leading to the invention of firearms in Europe.

German Monk Berthold Schwarz is Credited with the Invention of Gunpowder and firearms."

nicolas-de-larmessin-berthold-schwarz-german-monk-and-alchemist-possibly-legendary.jpg


It is not much of a reach to credit a German with making better weapons. http://netposterworks.com/history/hinventions2.html

Greek Fire predates Chinese incendiaries (600s) and possibly included the same ingredients as black powder among others. Effectively it was a very violent napalm that floated on water and stuck to targets to burn them better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

The earliest references to fireworks was also the 600s in China so it is not impossible that the two technologies were feeding off each other with apparent leaps in performance which could just have been battles where secret or little documented weapons suddenly came to public view. I have heard that there is a description of what seems to have been handgonnes at the not-quite-a-battle of Buironfosse 10/23/1339. Both armies effectively retreated.

Fire arrows probably would have been a more reliable investment in the 1100s than any sort of proto-gun.
th
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
20,091
Reaction score
981
Very interesting Karl..... :hatsoff:
As always...

Would it be safe to say that a gun of any type in northern Europe, in Alden's scenario would be...virtually non-existent...? Or at least un documentable?
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
21,288
Reaction score
17,223
Location
Republic mo
In the early 16th cent Europeans visiting China don't mention guns, it's unlikely they had any till Europeans brought them. Bacon wrote about powder a good 50 years before Swartz was born. However he wrote about it as if it was a known thing. Muslim Spain or North Africa was the world most open and educated place at this time. Fundelmism had fallen off and they were under a lot of influences that would get one beheaded today in some Mid East countries. France and Italy seem to be the gateway in to Europe from this area. The German states were slow to get on the band wagon. When was it first done...I think 1100 is much to early, but if we find a marginal drawing or historic remains it for sure will be no surprise for me. Any gonne for this time would have to be vary simplistic, arrow or rock shooters. Maybe a bucket full of stones with a powder charger wedged in the bottom and shot as a mortar.
 
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
20,091
Reaction score
981
I think 1100 is much to early,
No century has seen a more rapid advancement of technology than the 20th century...

The 12 century is a long way from 13th century
The possibility of a simple cannon in the mid 1100's in northern Europe is a remote possibility at best......So unless I read your post wrong....we are in agreement...
Which is why I initially posted... "trick question? "
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
21,288
Reaction score
17,223
Location
Republic mo
We agree for sure. My post was more of why it would think it too early. Also I don't agree that the evedence supports a China first idea for powder oh guns. Wanting to credit or blame some one for its invention would be Spain or North Africa.
 

Karl Helweg

40 Cal.
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
272
Reaction score
1
Yes, Roger Bacon apparently wrote down a black powder formula c. 1242. I can be just a little Teuton-centric sometimes.

Documenting a firearm in the 1100s would be about as easy as documenting a flying machine in the 1700s. Our grandcestors could theoretically built either with the materials that they had but just did not have it all together yet.
 
Top