Metal finish on Original Hawken Guns

[MSK]

Were original Hawken rifles generally browned, blued or left in the white?

Thanks, Smollett

 

[Spikebuck]

Since I am in the process of building a "fantasy" Early Flint Hawken fullstock, I have asked the same question. I have received many close-up pictures of barrels of originals and I'll be darned if I can tell. I don't know if some kind of chemical tests can or have been done to see what the true answer might be or if any original documentation exists that definitively shows what was used. While brown or blue seem to be possibilities, I've had numerous replies from people who study these guns that they were not left "white."

Here's a couple of pics of an original. You tell me. Both pics are the same rifle.

DSCN0855 by mdheaser

DSCN0856 by mdheaser

Currently, my hope is to recreate the look of the bottom picture.

I'll be watching this post to see what evidence may be given.

 

[Zonie]

Having never examined a real Hawken I can only go by what I've read.

It's just about impossible to tell what the original barrel finish was by examining the exposed areas.
If the barrel is removed from the stock the protected area seems to indicate most of the gun barrels were originally heat or charcoal blued.

Now, having said that I'll sit back and let the real Hawken experts tell us how wrong I am. :grin:

op:

 

[M. De Land]

I know less than zip about Hawken rifles but find it hard to believe that they would be left in the white when being sold to fur traders plying their trade in Indian country most of the time.

 

[LaBonte]

The few Hawkens in good enough condition to see original barrel finish are blued. I like the color I get by slow rust brown, followed by boiling the barrel in water.

The proper finish for the other iron parts,trigger guard,buttplate , lock,etc is case hardened. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.
The barrel, rib and thimbles were blue. The breech and tang were cased as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar,entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.

The above answer re: original Hawken metal finishes is by well known Hawken authority Don Stith

 

[Rifleman1776]

Here is a shot one in a museum, and, like you, danged if I can tell what the finish is. I have a friend who owns an original Hawken and I have held it. Naughty me for not paying closer attention. :nono: I'll be seeing him later this month and will take a good look.

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[Rifleman1776]

Here is a pic of our own Squire Robin holding the original Hawken when he was here hunting with myself and our friend. Looks browned to me.

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[BrownBear]

Interesting to me that this is posted in the Flintlock Rifle section! :haha:

 

[crockett]

Like many have said, most original guns have barrels that are aged with perhaps some brown rust, etc. so that whether it was originally blue or browned is hard to tell but as the experts here have stated it appears most/all were blued and the hardware case hardened.
My knowledge on case hardening is limited but as I understand it the original deal was just the grey color and then at some point in time the quench had oils in it that imparted colors and people liked that and color case hardening was then done.
I thought I read somewhere (The Plains Rifle by Hanson?) that the barrel and rib were browned and the hardware blued except the cap box cover which was case hardened in some instances although the photos I've seen the cap box lid looks browned to me.
I've never held a real Hawken in my hands. Nothing like first hand experience, photos can be misleading.
One issue to consider is how well you can brown versus how well you can blue. Is a rust blue the same as a charcoal blue? I think they look different. What method can the maker employ that gives the best results?

 

[galamb]

I would just echo what LaBonte has posted.

When I asked the same questions of Don Stith and Louie Parker, who combined have probably handled more original Hawken rifles than most of us will ever even see pictures of, their reply was -

almost exclusively rust blued, but there were a very few that there was no evidence to suggest they weren't originally rust browned,

(Don also stated, however, that after spending a few months "in the field" that many would take on a rust brown appearance - you have to look to the protected underside of the barrel to see the original finish in many cases)

and other parts were case hardened (if steel).

The Hawken's did occasionally build with brass furniture and on at least two occasions, coin silver (on Plains/Mountain rifles).

And agree - odd place to post this question since there is no "un-disputed" example of a Plains/Mountain Flint Hawken Rifle in existence.

 

[crockett]

Was it rust blued? I could probably do that. I thought they were charcoal blued which requires a pipe and a whole process that I don't know about.

 

[Spikebuck]

Was it rust blued? I could probably do that.

Very much the same as rust brown, but as noted in the Stith quote, followed by boiling in, as I understand it, distilled water.

Laurel Mountain Forge Rust Bluing Instructions:

Prepare the barrel and other parts being blued as described for rust browning. For a high gloss surface, sand parts and the barrel with succeedingly finer sandpaper, finishing up with 800 grit emery or silicon carbide paper. If an even higher gloss is desired, polish the barrel with buffing compound and a wheel to whatever finish is desired. If you do use buffing compound you must remove all traces before proceeding with the rust blue process. Even though Barrel Brown & Degreaser works through any oil type surface contaminates, it will not work through wax left from the buffing process. If you have buffed the parts, make sure you remove the wax residue with a solvent-based degreaser.

Rust Blues are basically rust browns where the iron oxide (rust) has been converted from the Ferric Oxide state (Fe2O3), which is red, to the Ferric Ferrous Oxide state (Fe3O4), which is blue-black. This conversion is accomplished by placing the browned parts in boiling distilled water. The easiest method to accomplish this is to make a simple scalding trough.

Purchase a length of 2 ½ inch PVC pipe and two end caps. The PVC should be a few inches longer than the barrel you will be bluing. Cut the PVC pipe lengthwise, about 1/3 of the way down, leaving an opening of about 2 inches. Now glue on the two end caps. This will result in a trough long enough to accept the barrel and deep enough to cover the barrel when immersed in water. Now for the actual bluing process.

1. Apply Barrel Brown & Degreaser as you would for a rust brown, allowing the fist coat to work 3 to 24 hours, depending on humidity and temperature. Remember, higher humidity and temperature require less time between application coats.
2. Apply second coat of Barrel Brown & Degreaser and allow it to work 3 to 12 hours.
3. Place the barrel in the scalding trough and scald with boiling water. Use enough water to thoroughly cover the barrel. Make sure the water you use is distilled. If the water used has any dissolved minerals, you will permanently keep the brown in the red Ferric state and it will never blue.
4. Once the barrel has cooled to the touch, remove it from the scalding bath and card off the rust scale. The carding method used is one of personal preference. Carding with a damp cloth and toothbrush is easier than the traditional steel wool or wire wheel, but produces a more matte finish.
5. Repeat steps 1, 3, & 4”¦applying Barrel Brown & Degreaser, Scalding and Carding two more times or until the desired depth of color is reached.

At this point neutralize any further rusting by scalding with boiling water and baking soda. Give the barrel a final carding, rinse well and then scald one more time with clean boiling water. Remove the barrel from the scalding trough and flash dry.

 

[MacRob46]

Hawken rifles were blued.

 

[tenngun]

When I started this game the rule for ml was brown, and I got to say I think it looks right. how ever since then we have learned that bluing and in the white was most common. I cant prove it here. The only original Hawkins I have seen were brown, but of course are old, if I was putting money on it I would bet they were blued.
Our modern ideas of not having anything shinny on a gun should not be applied to back then. American Fur was buying Pennsylvanian plain rifles that were blue or 'white'. Many Hawkins were brass and a few were silver mounted. Leman Derringer and Henry were all making brass mounted. A few of these guns had white barrels. In my head I see Hawkins browned and in the hands of Bill Tyler, in reality I see them blue and would not be surprised to see them at least a few in the white.

 

[rich pierce]

The few Hawkens in good enough condition to see original barrel finish are blued. I like the color I get by slow rust brown, followed by boiling the barrel in water.

The proper finish for the other iron parts,trigger guard,buttplate , lock,etc is case hardened. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.
The barrel, rib and thimbles were blue. The breech and tang were cased as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar,entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.

The above answer re: original Hawken metal finishes is by well known Hawken authority Don Stith

There's really no reason to speculate when Don Stith's input has been given.

 

[slumlord44]

Interesting discussion on blue versus brown finish. I collect Stevens single shots. They were originally blued from the factory. Unless they were meticulously cared for over the years the finish turned brown. I have lots of them that are brown and lots that are still varying degrees of blue. No big mystery here. I use browning solution to touch up the guns that have turned brown over the years.

 

[MSK]

My posting in this section wasn't suggestive; I just wasn't thinking...

My apologies for raising an eyebrow or two.

Smollett

 

[FishDFly]

Along with Don Stith and another person with great knowledge of Hawken's is Herb, send him a note. He will know.

 

[crockett]

Well, one reason I have held off on trying the rust blue was I thought you needed a long metal container that was put over a stove and water brought to a boil and then you boiled the barrel for about 10 minutes. I didn't know you could use PVC and pour in boiling water and get the same result.
I have rust blued hatchet heads and other smaller metal parts in normal sized pans.
Has anyone tried the scalded water in a pvc pipe method? Or...does anyone have any suggestions on a suitable metal container that isn't too expensive if the boiling method is better?

 

[MSK]

I actually found out the hard way that submersion in scalding water turns browning black ("blue"). I'd placed some small, freshly-browned parts in a bowl of boiled water (from a tea kettle) and baking soda, to neutralize the browning, and let them sit too long. I ended up having to remove the finish and start over. So yes, it should work, at least with Wahkon Bay reagent, which is what I'd used.

Smollett