Making original gun safe and shootable

[kansas_volunteer]

I'm getting interested in antique original guns. What needs to be done to inspect and fix an old gun and make it new again? I've read in the forums that some pull the breach plug for inspection.l have read mentions of replacing drums and nipples on old percussion guns. What if you pull the drum and find the threads don't match a modern specification? What if the hole in the barrel for the drum is larger than needed for modern made drums. Do you bush the hole and install the modern drum?

I'd like the advice of those who have made antique guns shootable again. How far do you go before destroying a gun's value?

 

[Phil Coffins]

You’ll need a lathe so you can make parts to match the old parts rather then re-fitting the old gun to modern parts. Old guns need to be restored not up graded. If that isn’t of interest to you then build a bench copy to shoot and keep the old gun as is for its own history.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I'm assuming we're talking about a drawn steel barrel and not a Damascus one, right? First thing to do is run some tight patches down it to feel for roughness or tight and loose spots. Keep working it until you get all the rust out. If you can borrow a scope, scope it to look for abnormally deep and large pitting. Chances are that drum is really rusted in to place and you might break it off if you try to bubba it too hard. If it's at all questionable I wouldn't shoot it.

If the drum and barrel are tight go ahead and shoot it with a light load, like half the caliber. I would set it up to pull the trigger remotely. Put a fairly light sand bag over the barrel and breech area. Then inspect for signs of gas leakage in the likely areas. Repeat a couple of times. I wouldn't ever shoot full-house loads in an antique that is at all questionable.

 

[TDM]

Agree with @Phil Coffins and @Col. Batguano
If the gun is shootable with a light cleanup then shoot a few light loads. But if any altercation is needed it’s best to preserve the gun as is. Damaging an old one just isn’t worth it.

 

[64Springer]

First thing: Pull the barrel. Hold it four inches from the breech, muzzle down, with two or three fingers. Tap the muzzle with one of your knuckles or a piece of wood or a soft mallet. If it rings like a bell, it has no cracks and should be safe to shoot. If it goes THUD and no sound it emitted, it likely has a crack in it.

If the barrel rings, rebuild the gun.

And cast aside the old internet wife's tales about old steel going bad. Steel doesn't go bad. Steel rusts. Barrels rust. They rust on the inside and they rust on the outside. But rust does not penetrate into and through the steel. And steel doesn't soften over time either. Another internet favorite.

If the barrel is not heavily pitted on the outside and the inside, rebuild the gun. But only if the barrel rings.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There are enough new made guns in circulation that we don't need to monkey around with originals anymore.

 

[sheriff john]

I shoot most all of my originals (rifles & shotguns), some more than others. Even those with bores like sewer pipes b/c sometimes it seems to me they'll actually do pretty good and it's fun. My personal worrisome thing has been nipples that appear good & tight screwed down all the way actually only have a thread or two holding.

Unscrewing breech plugs? For me, with my luck, uh ...very seldom and never on a double barrel.

 

[2 shots]

But rust does not penetrate into and through the steel.

rust can not penetrate a twist steel barrel? a deep pit on the inside... a deep pit on the outside in same general area is not a bad thing?? if not the first shot then when ? seems kind of like a possible time bomb. i know people shoot them all the time, but i like my face like it is. kind of like collecting civil war cannonballs and shells . ' 'oh its ok theyre safe'' to each their own..

 

[64Springer]

rust can not penetrate a twist steel barrel? a deep pit on the inside... a deep pit on the outside in same general area is not a bad thing?? if not the first shot then when ? seems kind of like a possible time bomb. i know people shoot them all the time, but i like my face like it is. kind of like collecting civil war cannonballs and shells . ' 'oh its ok theyre safe'' to each their own..

I addressed pitting as a separate issue.

It's the very last line of my original post.

Please point out where the OP mentioned anything about a twist steel barrel.

 

[andy52]

Most of it depends on the condition the gun is in, to begin with. I've brought several original guns back to shooting condition. Mainly I don't buy the ones that are basically trashed, The bore seems to be the main issue with most of them. I'm working on one now that was in pretty good shape considering its 170 years old.
I just talked to Bobby Hoyt this morning about a rebore, so it's off to him for that.
But you have to consider the additional cost of something like this.

 

[2 shots]

Please point out where the OP mentioned anything about a twist steel barrel.

hi , he did not , nor did he say its not. and sorry i missed the pitting thing. but he is saying he is new to this so maybe he is not aware of such things. i was just trying to let him see all possibilities too keep him safe. i am well aware that many old guns [ quality pieces ] are safe. to shoot but some of the lower grade stuff [ which we see the most of ] that people have asked me if its safe are down right scary . you have to wonder why they would even ask. but than i realize that they really have no idea about it. and some even after being advised against it will still try them. i like the old saying ' you dont know what you dont know' it keeps one safe and makes one research things. and yes the internet can give very bad info ref. 'they dont know what they dont know '

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[64Springer]

hi , he did not , nor did he say its not. and sorry i missed the pitting thing. but he is saying he is new to this so maybe he is not aware of such things. i was just trying to let him see all possibilities too keep him safe. i am well aware that many old guns [ quality pieces ] are safe. to shoot but some of the lower grade stuff [ which we see the most of ] that people have asked me if its safe are down right scary . you have to wonder why they would even ask. but than i realize that they really have no idea about it. and some even after being advised against it will still try them. i like the old saying ' you dont know what you dont know' it keeps one safe and makes one research things. and yes the internet can give very bad info ref. 'they dont know what they dont know '

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We're all born with "We Don't Know What We Don't Know".

I commend anyone who wants to gain the knowledge needed to drag a gun out of the graveyard. As our society progresses more and more people want it new and they want it now. I'm sorry if J.G. Wentworth gets stuck in your head.

Many savable guns are being thrown out. As a certified gun nut, that bothers me. That's why enjoy some of the resurrection journeys this forum provides.

Only the OP knows whether he has the background and skill to save his particular rifle. The internet is filled with information on how to restore/rebuild old guns. More information can be found here. If I can be a small bit of help in the OP accomplishing his task, I'll surely help him. But I'll only offer advice that I have firsthand knowledge of.

Be well.

 

[Scota@4570]

"What needs to be done to inspect and fix an old gun and make it new again? "

That is a bad idea. It is destruction. Conserving old guns is a good idea. Preserve the original finish and stop the deterioration . Do not sand, file or polish. Naval jelly is evil. Stop the rust by boiling in water. Do replace or repair broken parts with original appearing replacements. Museum pieces are different and require specialist care. Check out Mark Novack's website on how and why to do this.

 

[andy52]

"What needs to be done to inspect and fix an old gun and make it new again? "

That is a bad idea. It is destruction. Conserving old guns is a good idea. Preserve the original finish and stop the deterioration . Do not sand, file or polish. Naval jelly is evil. Stop the rust by boiling in water. Do replace or repair broken parts with original appearing replacements. Museum pieces are different and require specialist care. Check out Mark Novack's website on how and why to do this.

You are correct in some ways, but not many old guns fall into the category of museum pieces. Replacing defective or broken parts absolutely necessary if you want to return the gun to shooting, condition. Stocks, only, what is required to stabilize them, No, refinish of any kind. don't polish the furniture, no shiny brass or silver.
When you fire it for the first time I hope you'd feel as if it were 170 years ago.

 

[TDM]

There is another option that’s available for some and that’s to have a new barrel made. When you want to shoot put it on. Keeps the original safe.

 

[andy52]

There is another option that’s available for some and that’s to have a new barrel made. When you want to shoot put it on. Keeps the original safe.

Yes, you can do that.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Bring forth the gun and let it be seen. Anything else at this point is wild speculation on “ what needs to be done”.
Thank you.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

When I wo4ked at the gun shop, I had many variations of this question asked me over the years, about both muzzleloaders and other antique guns. In general, especially if the gun looked like it had been dragged behind a mule with diarrhea for twenty miles and then put into a damp basement for a hundred years, I would advise them to clean it up, coat it with oil and hang it on the wall. Under no circumstances would I ever suggest that they shoot it.

Damascus/twist steel has it's own problems. Those welds might have been fine a hundred years ago when the barrel was new. But since then, the rust has had a century to weaken them and there is no reliable way to say when the barrel will fail.... catastrophically.

Before about 1920 or so, nobody knew much about making steel. Batches varied in characteristics. Engineers often compromised by over-engineering the part in question. Winchester Model '73s and their descendants were good examples of this. Take a look at an early Rolls-Royce frame if you want another example.

Years ago I had an old shotgun in the store that had been found in the mid-1950's out in a field wired up under the running board of a Model T Ford. Now, figure that gun was probably out there since the twenties. I'll leave it to the imagination as to what it looked like. A youngster bought it, figuring he could "fix it up". I cautioned him, but in the end, he filled out the form, paid for the wallhanger and took it home with him. I put on his receipt "Wallhanger. Do not fire." I don't know what eventually happened.

In any case, even when new, some old guns were probably not very safe to shoot. Another example; Colt 1849 Walkers. Very few original Walker Colts survive to this day because the cylinders blew up on the battlefield. Now, remember, this was then a NEW gun and the heaviest one Colt ever made. If you could find a Walker in shootable condition, would you actually shoot it when it wasn't safe to shoot when new? I wouldn't.

In general, trying to restore an old muzzleloader is a bad idea at best and shooting one is probably a worse idea. Evaluating one without even seeing pictures of it is a fool's errand, so I'm gonna say DON'T. Just DON'T.

That said, it is your gun and your life. You do as you wish... but don't stand next to me at the range when you shoot it.

 

[Eterry]

The OP didn't say if it's a rifle or smoothbore. The ringing of the barrel only applies to smoothbore.
I've shot 2 of my original smoothbores, both after many hours of bore scrubbing, borescopes, folks with more experience declaring it safe and with mild loads. It felt TERIFIC to touch my William Moore off and watch a crow fall from the sky.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I've used original guns for over 35 years, and have competed and won prizes with them. The gunsmith at The Log Cabin repaired and examined many of them for me before I tried to use them. If old guns are used and cared for sensibly no harm will come to them or the shooter.