110 is a lot
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Main charge question
- Thread starter Rodneystiffler
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I wonder about the effectiveness of the powder they had back in the day? If I recall, Dupont was making a quality powder in the east, but it doesnt mean that it was readily available from St. Louis west, or what was preferred. A great deal of our shooting nowadays is target, and we optimize our load for target accuracy. If fI was more concerned with griz or buff, big targets...I may be wanting to optimize my powder load too. It seems that the book "The Hawken Rifle, its place in history" (think I got that right) states the loads and range that Hawkens were sighted for. I dont recall off hand.
With everything from 45-58 caliber I’ve never used more than 80 grains of either 3F or 2F for targets or hunting. In my 75 Brown Bess I only use 80 grains of 3F with a .735 roundball. Everything I’ve shot a roundball in has dropped dead. On the other hand I’ve never shot a deer with those loads any further than 80 yards.
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Back in 2013-2014 I did some fairly extensive shooting tests out to 400 yards using an original Dickert (was looking at some questions about the shots Hanger wrote of in the AWI). Bore was about .48 cal.
When working up loads, I started at 50 gr IIRC, and worked up in 10 grain increments. As the charge increased, group size shrank to a point then began expanding. Best load with one powder gave a velocity of 1860 fps, best load with the other powder gave 1975 fps. I later repeated the tests with a third powder, where the best groups came at 1910.
The bore was frosted, in hindsight I suspect the patches used may have been a limiting factor. That said, charges for the 3 powders ranged from 90-110 grains FFg.
I'm currently (and oh-so-slowly!) repeating the tests with a modern percussion rifle (GRRW Leman). Twist is a little slower, but group sizes are still shrinking at 110 grains FFg. My current test protocol for load evaluation is 5) 20-shot groups from a bench (each group shot on a different day) at 100 yards.
These are not loads I'd use for shooting a match at 25-50-75-100 yards, or for hunting whitetail deer back east. Scattered through the literature there mentions of long range shots in wartime, on the buffalo range, etc; I'm just experimenting to see what it took to make those shots.
When working up loads, I started at 50 gr IIRC, and worked up in 10 grain increments. As the charge increased, group size shrank to a point then began expanding. Best load with one powder gave a velocity of 1860 fps, best load with the other powder gave 1975 fps. I later repeated the tests with a third powder, where the best groups came at 1910.
The bore was frosted, in hindsight I suspect the patches used may have been a limiting factor. That said, charges for the 3 powders ranged from 90-110 grains FFg.
I'm currently (and oh-so-slowly!) repeating the tests with a modern percussion rifle (GRRW Leman). Twist is a little slower, but group sizes are still shrinking at 110 grains FFg. My current test protocol for load evaluation is 5) 20-shot groups from a bench (each group shot on a different day) at 100 yards.
These are not loads I'd use for shooting a match at 25-50-75-100 yards, or for hunting whitetail deer back east. Scattered through the literature there mentions of long range shots in wartime, on the buffalo range, etc; I'm just experimenting to see what it took to make those shots.
I harvested a doe (5 yr old Kansas deer) at 75 yds with my .58 this year. 80 grains of FFF was a complete pass through. I’d say an individual would be fine out passed 100
With respect,, what's that mean?
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About 40 years ago I bought the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. As far as I was concerned it was the bible of black powder shooting and firearms. It was filled with tables of velocity and muzzle energy charts - as well as all kinds of good information about black powder firearms. The one thing that stood out to me was that that for rifles, the size of the load and the weight of the bullet were much less important to downrange energy as velocity - which was LARGELY DETERMINED by the length of the barrel. I might just have to go up to the study and dig that old book to and see if my memory is holding up better than the rest of me...
I use 90 grains in .50 and .54.
I use 60 grains FFFG in my .54 hawken
SamTex1949
32 Cal.
Please, which book is that ? pic of the cover be nice !
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Keep in mind that the original Hawken rifle weighed 10 plus pounds. There was a lot of steel in those barrels and could take heavy charges. Also chances of running into a grizzly bear was pretty high, hence the heavy loads. When muzzle loaders were replaced with cartridge rifles, those rifles like the Sharp's 45-70 with 500 grain bullets only used a charge of 70 grains. Even the big 50 calibers were only using 110 grains. IMHO heavy loads are unnecessary unless one is hunting the big bears.
as far I know animals are made of flesh and bone not steel.
as far I know animals are made of flesh and bone not steel. my loads will go through a 1/4 in. of wood ( rib bones) then through a 3 to 4 in. book or packed paper ( inside of the animal ) then another 1/4 in. wood like plywood. 50 grains of 777 or pyrodex with round ball pass through that target up to 70 yards. BP I use up to 70 gain. last deer I killed with that load was 80+ yards ball was stuck on opposite side rib.
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When hunting my .50 caliber rifles use 80 grains of Black MZ, the .54 caliber rifle uses 90 grains of Black MZ powder. The .58 rifle is a work in progress.
GrandLakeHunter
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Shoot what is accurate out to the ranges you are comfortable with. My .54 percussion shoots lubed REAL slugs with felts underneath them as tight as I can hold still to 100 yds. Was 1" - 1.5" at 30 yrs old, now around 2" - 3". Always used 90-100 grains 2f. Punches a cookie cutter hole clean through 2 deer...we are allowed 6 here. It also shot well with some $2/lb Pyrodex I couldn't pass on from a clearance sale but ignition was 75% unless I primed the bolster. Not what you want in hunting situations.
GrandLakeHunter
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PS, Until and if the supply issues ease up, less is more if you know what I mean. I could probably get by with 70 grain charges and check accuracy at 75 and 100 yds. That would get me 100 hunting loads per lb. Plinking and playing balloon tic tac toe with the grandkids will be reserved to the 45's and 50's with very light loads at $25 plus/lb.
Hiwallhunter
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I have used 120 gr. of 3fg in my JBMR .54 calibre for moose backed with wasp or hornets nest. My rifle is proofed to 150 3fg powder btw! I use 40 gr for targets as they don't get aggressive!!
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"Frosted" is a term used to describe a bore that has enough corrosion/erosion that when clean the lands and grooves (if a rifle) or bore (if a smoothbore) appears to have a matte finish rather than being shiny.
