Loyalist Arms

[robert reed]

Are these guns shooters or strictly for reenacters? I like percussion muskets and they have a selection of good looking guns. I see on the website that they are proofed. I am looking for actual experience with these guns, not opinions on Indian made guns. All my guns are used hard, will their product hold up?
Thanks

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I think you might to double check their website. All of their guns are meant to shoot with live rounds.

Their site says
"Loading and proofing data included with all guns. All moving parts warranted for 6 months and all springs for 1 year. ".
So they give you information for you to test fire your gun with an overcharge. "Proofing" requires the gun be sent to an accredited "proof house" and there isn't such a place in North America.

I have two of their guns, and am ordering a third this month. I've owned the other two for many years and no function problems. They are quite durable, and come ready to fire. The only problems that I have encountered are that the parts are not interchangeable, so if you break a spring you will need to have the new spring fitted, and the steel parts come highly polished, so you need to knock the shine down...which is pretty easy.

LD

 

[robert reed]

Thanks Loyalist Dave. That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. You are right, I did misunderstand the proofing info. How are they to deal with?

 

[Alden]

Tell us, Fulminator, why you would bother to ask anecdotal information about guns purchased from Loyalist but not accept valid opinions on India-made guns when that's all that they sell and which share a common type of manufacture and level of quality?

I have many guns and other items from Loyalist including the 1st Long Land Pattern Bess imported by them which is older than the people here have been members. And my last unique, but also somewhat disappointing, purchase from them arrived a week ago. So I'll answer your question and it's not what you want to hear you've made clear.

Their products, including their guns, are typical, below average quality, India-made imports that are not up to the rigours of dedicated shooters in my opinion. If an alternative option is readily available and reasonably affordable, buy it instead. If not, and you want a regular shooter, choose a different gun and get IT. If you want to save a few bucks no matter what, good luck.

If you want validation of a decision already made, to avoid Buyer's Remorse, and so dismiss (presumably informed) opinions about exactly what you are planning to buy by setting up your conditions to comment you shouldn't waste people's time here but use the Search Function a new member should, dismiss the comments about India-made guns there, and have the courage of your convictions.

There is a reason more than 4 out of 5 buyers rate India-made guns as least desireable in the world and it's not because they are so good or even average for the money. Furthermore, they really don't have to buy one to develop that perspective, they put the horse before the cart...

 

[Ike Godsey]

...

Their products, including their guns, are typical, below average quality, India-made imports that are not dedicated shooters in my opinion.

...

And you proof that with what?
I odered - as you know - two LLps from Loyalist Arms. Both arms are great. Locks working perfect.
Both guns are proof tested here in a official German proofhouse and safe to shoot.

Again Alden, YOU proof your above statement with what?

There is a reason more than 4 out of 5 buyers rate India-made guns as least desireable in the world and it's not because they are so good or even average for the money.

OH - is that so? Where do you get this from? Show me a proof for that please.

Ike

 

[Alden]

I don't have to prove anything Ike. And you cannot. Still, you might want to look at the simple poll I conducted here and its clear results. I won't defend myself to someone who even oddly alters historic facts (no SLP Bess' existed during the F&I War?) to justify his own path of least, cheap, resistance to get an infrequent-blank-load-firing low-quality excuse of something (and a backup because you secretly have no confidence in them I either I'm sure) that's most important it just LOOKS the part.

These are opinions. You are incapable of accepting mine and most others' due to your financial and emotional investment. Conversely, mine are based on decades of experience including as a professional in related fields and not being in a position that I can be objective about my many, many, toys. And even if I was a poor, young, novice removed from our variety as Germany is, I'd still listen to what the vast majority have to say and my lying eyes.

 

[Ike Godsey]

This here is my certificate that shows me that my India made French 1728 Flint Musket has an official German proof and is save to shot nearly 190 grains BP behind a 750 grain bullet!

First, you must know how this is done.

The gun is inspected and the bore size and the touchhole is measured.
(They measure the touchhole 'cause it could not be more than 1.5mm - that’s the reason I order my muskets without a touchhole drilled. If it is bigger that 1.5mm - no proof!)

They have a list of bore size and this shows the proof load of powder and lead.

Sorry, but this is all in German:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/beschussv/anlage_i_57.html

Then the gun barrel is measured a second time but this time outside measurements are taken - muzzle - the middle section and the breech.

Then the gun is fixed in a device and loaded with the proof load. When everyone is behind the closed door, the gun is fired.

Then they measure the gun again. If one of those measurements does not match the before taken ones, the gun failed.

If they match, they will fire the gun a second time. Again measured and if match you get the above certificate plus some little stamps on the barrel.

If they do not match, the gun failed the test.

The little stamps on the barrel are as follows:

- the proof house mark (each house got a different one)
- the "Staate" this here show "Bavaria"
- the date. Here we have a code system:
"08" is the month = August. "BE" indicates the year with the following code:

A = 0
B = 1
C = 2
and so on up to 9.
So "08BE" turns out to be August 14 08.2014.
the next tells you the caliber = 17,5mm.
The last one (on the right close to the stock) reds "PN" that stands for "poudre noire" = BP.

So by looking at the stamps, you can see what kind of powder and the caliber and that the gun is officially proofed.

The certificate itself shows

- if muzzleloader
- number of barrels
- the guns serial number,
- the origin of the gun (india in my case)
- the bore size and
- the way of ignition. (flint or percussion
- ball or shot

Then it show you from left to right:

- the projectile - here it says "Ball" its weight - it says 50g (g = gramm NOT grain!)
- the BP charge 12g (again gramm)
- and the equivalent charge 9 gramm of Triple Seven or Pyrodex or...

You can be sure, if the gun is used correctly - means within this range of powder and lead, it is safe to shoot.

You also should know that there are different proofs for ball, shot and even blank-firer.

I have reworked several Inida made flinters that came here without a touchhole doe to the above stated requirements. NON of those have ever failed such a test firing.

Hope that clears the dust a little. If you have any further questions about this, feel free to ask.

You asked if those are workhorses - YES they are. And since I have worked with many India made guns, Loyalist Arms delivered me the best quality.

Thanks for listening. :hatsoff:

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

I don't have to prove anything Ike. And you cannot. And even if I could I wouldn't, couldn't, to someone else who alters historic facts (no SLP Bess' during the F&I War?) to justify his own path of least, cheapest, resistance to get an infrequently blank-load fired low-quality excuse of something that's most important it just LOOKS the part.

Alden, Alden, Alden - you still keep telling the world, that your SLP Bess is OK for F&I War?
Fine - I that makes you a happy guy - keep it this way.
Those who take it real know that a SLP did not exist in the time frame 1754-1763.

These are opinions. You are incapable of accepting mine due to your financial and emotional investment. Conversely, mine are based on decades of experience including as a professional in related fields and not having to worry about a mortgage because I have a hobby too. And even if I was a poor, young, novice removed from our variety as you in Germany are I'd still listen to what the vast majority have to say and my lying eyes.

WOW! But sorry, I am not impressed.
First, when I prefer to buy an India made LLP, it is because of its features. A Pedersoli Bess, like yours simply does not fit my needs. It would put me in the "farby corner" - maybe thats what you like - I don't.

Second, it does have nothing to do with how much money one would have or not have.

Thirdly, your "decades of experience" is what compared to my work as an educated, licensed, professional gun smith for the last 30 years?

Do you really think you are the only guy on this planet with "decades of experience"?

Ike

 

[Alden]

Great, you have a cheap, and I do mean cheap, gun (and invested in a backup whose parts don't even interchange) that didn't blow up once. Doesn't make it good, average, or anything else Ike. A strong pipe with a cap and touchole might've passed. How many times are you going to go to that well?

The worst guns any military in the world ever made and used still passed an inspection... A whole lot in German states. Keep trying to convince yourself you have a good, (I hope) safe, gun. We're not buying it, literally or figuratively, when it comes to India-made guns if we have another option by and large.

You can drive a Yugo on the Autobahn too, Ike, but that doesn't make it an Audi. And we recognize a used car salesmen when we see one.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Great, you have a cheap, and I do mean cheap, gun (and invested in a backup whose parts don't even interchange) that didn't blow up once. Doesn't make it good, average, or anything else Ike. A strong pipe with a cap and touchole might've passed. How many times are you going to go to that well?

Alden, what you say here is simply not right.
1) you do not know my LLP
2) no one ever will load a gun with the same load as they did in the proof house.

... We're not buying it, literally or figuratively, when it comes to India-made guns if we have another option by and large.

YOU don't buy them. And this is OK. But do not try to tell everybody what they have to do or think about a gun. They are grown up and everyone could make his own decision what to buy and what not.

... And we recognize a used car salesmen when we see one.

As far as I remember no one on the board here ever offered anything for sale...

Ike

EDIT:
One more thing to add - if you are so proud of your "other guns" (US made??) why not set up a contest and use the charges in the above document of the German Proof House?

I will draw in my LLP.
And you? Hows about a self builded kit from TWO? Lets say their LLP - what about it?

 

[Alden]

Ike, I took delivery of my most recent India-made gun last Thursday at Noon. And it was everything I expected it to be. You don't seem to get it...

I have no dog in this fight, only an objective opinion. An opinion shared by most members for I think good reasons. One we personally share when topical to the dismay of previous or commited India-made gun buyers.

You like your India-made guns. Bless you (unless you formed up near me in which case heaven protect me)! The problem is your defensive argument for them, and the emperor has no clothes.

PS: if you were really a gunsmith who wants to keep any positive reputation... ixnay efendingday the India ademay unsgay.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Alden,

this is not a fight - its not even close to one.
This is simply an exchange of opinions - well at least from my side.

I have given you - and the thread owner - some facts - and you? You keep trying to convice everyone not to buy anything else but a Pedersoli Bess.
Even your statement

Ike, I took delivery of my most recent India-made gun last Thursday at Noon. And it was everything I expected it to be...

could be a positive one - could be - do not have to be. There is too much room for everything in between.

I want you to understand that I really do not have a problem with your opinion. But up till now you never showed a evidence or any other fact of the "bad" things and those rumor around those india made guns. All you do is picking.

Ike

 

[robert reed]

Tell us, Fulminator, why you would bother to ask anecdotal information about guns purchased from Loyalist but not accept valid opinions on India-made guns when that's all that they sell and which share a common type of manufacture and level of quality?

Thank you, Alden. What I didn't want is opinions that are not based on experience. I am aware of the reputation of India made guns, I was hoping for exactly what you gave me. I am not a reenacter and am not concerned with hc/pc of the guns, I just like to shoot percussion muskets. If you could steer me to a better source for this type of arm it would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks for stirring up the the topic with your usual aplomb! As always, very educational.

 

[Col. Batguano]

This thread is reminding me of the opening scene in the movie "Airplane!" when the P.A. announcers are arguing back and forth about whether or not there is parking allowed in the white or green zone(s). op:

 

[robert reed]

Roger, Roger! :grin:

 

[Artificer]

May I suggest it would be best for you to explain what percussion guns you are interested in purchasing?

This most recent post mentions you are not a re-enactor. Do you wish to have a HC/PC copy of a gun or gun that looks good and shoots good, but is not HC/PC?

Are you planning to hunt with it, if so what game and at what range? What kind of accuracy do you expect or demand?

Do you plan on shooting it a lot, or just occasionally or for a short black powder hunting season?

The more you describe about what you want and how you are going to use it, makes it easier to offer suggestions that will be more useful to you.

Gus

 

[Alden]

Fulminator, the world is your oyster. Especially if you are wlling to buy used. So many people buy and eventually sell caplocks. And there are so many types, and have been so many manufacturers, over the years... What do you want it for and types do you like!?

All of them quite better on average than anything from India. Holy cow -- that's the LAST place to look!

Now I have to go rent Airplane!

 

[robert reed]

I use my guns for general target shooting and hunting and trekking in the WNC mountains. I noticed several good looking guns on LA website. I know that they are smooth bore and thought that would be fun to play with. Pedersoli makes only a couple of smooth percussion muskets that are pricey. Just exploring options and LA is one.

Thanks

 

[Artificer]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was not sure by your earlier posts if you meant a smooth bore musket or a rifled musket. Many folks actually mean a rifle musket when they talk about a percussion musket, but that is not the case with you from your latest post.

Do you have an idea of what caliber would be acceptable for your requirements? Do you plan on shooting both round ball and shot from the gun? How large of game do you plan on shooting with your gun?

Would something like the following linked gun suit your needs?
http://www.gunsinternational.com/T...68769b642-CE1C8048-90B1-1C3E-AE802F64820BCF1A

Gus

 

[Zonie]

Well, I didn't find it very educational except for the information about German Proofing.

You asked a good question and clearly stated you wanted information from other owners who own and shoot guns from Loyalist Arms.

The first thing I see is a good response from an owner and then someone asking why you don't want to hear others opinions rather than facts.

I'm sure he is well aware that there are a number of other topics on the Forum that deal with giving just opinions about these guns so I'm not sure why he would wonder why you don't want a rehashing of those opinions here. It seems pretty obvious to me.

Anyway, we have gone from a good question thru a few good answers and then reverted back to another bashing post where we all can bash the guns and each other. :shake:

Hopefully, the bashing and opinions will stop so we can get back to people who have real world experiences from actually shoot these guns. (fingers crossed Smilie).