loooooooooong range gun

[mike alexandre]

Has nobody got any hints on paper wrapping a whitworth bullet :hmm:?????

 

[bezoar]

try this english website of old newspaper articles from the 1800s from the london times. lots of good info.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/

thats the main site page where you can select from their small list of reprinted books, and you can get info from the paper wrapping bullets, to making enfield cartridges to how the guns were proofed and assembled. It even has london times articles on weapons trials from the 1800s.
They even have a book on the history of creedmore, might be decent to look at buying.

 

[mike alexandre]

Bezoar. Thanks for the link, lots of good info here. What I was particularly after was info and ideas on paper wrapping flat bottom whitworth bullets.

 

[jimbo15563]

I appreciate all the help and information I received on this thread about the Whitworth barrel. I have found one, but the cost is more than I have allocated for my underhammer project. The following are 3 emails from the seller in the order received.

Yes we do have a barrel,.451 Parker Hale Whitworth barrel ( no breech plug or tang)its 34 1/2" long, an original new one. what country are you from as this would reflect on price of carraige and also if we need import and export papers

The PH barrel we have has a muzzle dia of .811" and a breech dia of 1.105". Bearing in mind when the barrel is assembled it is linished to blend the tang in and to polish it so the diameters will be slightly different. The barrel has an open breech which takes a tang plug. The barrel is presently unfinished and will need proofing when the work is complete

The price of the barrel is

 

[Tumblernotch]

Well Jimbo, you're probably better off. You're looking at at least $350-$400 dollars just to get the barrel, then whatever your gunsmith will charge for finishing it up. I think it takes about $1.80 to equal a Pound at the present exchange rate, I could be out of date on that, and you would want insurance and the quickest shipping.

Unlimited days delivery probably means it will sit on a loading dock unnoticed for a long time before someone finally sees it and throws it onto a plane or into a ship's hold, then will go through the same thing in reverse here in the states for an equal amount of time.

It's a shame it's so hard to get something like that because it would surely make a nice addition to that set of barrels you were talking about. But Green Mountain makes some good barrels. I have one on my .40 cal. Flinter. You can always keep your eyes peeled for another one I guess.
Good luck with your underhammer. Look forward to see how it comes out! ::

 

[Tumblernotch]

Go to www.lrml.org/technical/index.htm

:thumbsup:

 

[ResearchPress]

What I was particularly after was info and ideas on paper wrapping flat bottom whitworth bullets.

I've emailed some Whitworth shooters I know and if I get any useful feedback will let you know.

Someone has offered to send me some hexagonal bullets to have a try myself! For those puzzled by the question, note that the hexagonal Whitworth bullet is also shaped to match the 1 in 20 pitch of the rifling. See the image below:

David

 

[mike alexandre]

KR. Thanks for the web info. Unfortuneatly it only deals with hollow based round bullets. The Whitworth bullet is hexagonal and flat based.
DM. Thanks and I'll keep a watch out here.

 

[miles fenton]

Hi David.
I always thought that the mechanically fitting Whitworth bullet was designed to be used without a paper patch.
However, if you want to paper patch it to inhibit leading the barrel I would suggest that you wrap as if it was cylindrical, just ignore the hexagon and, even though there is no dimple in the base, I'm sure that the usual twist and flatten method would suffice. I am a great advocate of the twist method rather than just a little fold over lip that some people use as I have seen these paper patches get left behind.
Miles.

 

[Tumblernotch]

You're welcome. Don't forget that there were many variations of Whitworth bullets and most of them are cylindrical. The vast majority of those used in the Civil War by Confederate sharpshooters were round. In fact, one pattern was rounded on both ends and could be loaded either way. Also, most patterns of hex Whitworths had a shallow base cavity. ::

 

[Tumblernotch]

David, I think I found something that will work very well as a base wad. The 1/8" thick over powder card used in ML shotguns. I punched a 16 ga. card with my hex punch and came up with a very nice wad. I suppose a light soaking in a good lube may make it a capital base wad. What do you think? :hmm:

 

[ResearchPress]

Hi Miles,

There's someone else <justmike> in this thread that's been asking about patching Whitworth bullets, I'm just trying to help out with some information. I don't shoot a Whitworth so have never tried patching the hex bullets.

I had the privilage of borrowing an original Whitworth match rifle to use in an MLAGB Long Range Rifles Branch 600yd match last October (in which I came third!). The bullets I was given to use were patched. One MLAGB shooter has been using baking parchment with success on Whitworth bullets. Sainsbury's he says is best....

I agree about the possibility of patching stripping when used with just a small fold over the base. A slight damp patch in the bore when loading and the patch can easily adhere to the bore and the bullet be pushed through. BTW the baking parchment is waterproof to an extent, another advantage that has been cited to me.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

The 1/8" thick over powder card used in ML shotguns.... I suppose a light soaking in a good lube may make it a capital base wad.

That's about twice as thick as the card I use, but not to say it won't work... one shooter once told me his 'secret' was 'big loads / big wads'. I'd certainly give it a try.

I just use a plain card wad, but others I know cook their cards in a variety of lubes. Whatever lube you use, be sure it is not so soft as to migrate into the powder or adhere the wad to the base of the bullet.

David

 

[miles fenton]

David.
I'm a very ex member of the MLAGB (1960 to 63 it think)now living in Vancouver Canada.
I used to make my paper patches from onion skin paper and then discovered that fine drafting vellum .002 thick called 1,000H over here worked very well with both my Rigby barrelled Whitworth LR and a rifle I built on a Jeffrey Farquharson big frame action using an Uli Eichelberger GAIN twist barrel. Rex put me in touch with him and he'll probably remember me, as will Bill Curtis.
I used to shoot a LAC Kerr patent breech .451 full stock rifle when in the UK all those years ago.
How is the scene there these days?
Here it is appalling, ranges closing, great difficulty getting across the border into the US for competitions and, of course, the restrictive Canadian gun laws....so I sold my rifles and now I just dream of the past!
Regards,
Miles Fenton.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I think I'll try it next time out. Since my bullets are grooved and I lube them I'll just leave the wads dry and see how they work. They're just about 1/8" thick. Should I seat them before the bullet like some shooters or start them and then seat them with the bullet?

I'm still shopping around for new sights. The prices for some are a bit out of range for me right now. I may have to see how good a machinist I'm not and make my own, at least the front one and maybe modify the rear. I've been invited to try the Big W at a long range club here and I'm in a hurry to get my sights right. My trigger finger is already twitchin'.

I ran a batch of cylindricals and sized them in the Whitworth swage that came with it. It barely sizes them. In fact, they rub the flats going in, so they're about as tight as I can stand. I know they need to be, but it's nervewracking knowing if a slug gets stuck I've got problems. This gun has a patent breech with a solid rear end. Very careful cleaning is the order of the day. I also need a new .30 cal. swab and brush to keep the chamber clean.

Thanks a lot for your comments and advice. :thumbsup:

 

[ResearchPress]

Miles,

I've seen your postings on the Long Range Muzzle Loader mailing list and was aware you had been in the MLAGB. The names you mention are still around... in fact I saw Rex at an MLAGB Executive Committee meeting yesterday. I met Uli in 2000 at the Long Range World Championships. There's a team from Switzerland coming to this years Championships so all being Uli will be along.

Long range muzzle loading seems to be really growing. Last years 300yd MLAGB Championship there were only 14 entrants, this year we had 29. At 500yd we had 20 last year, but according to the squadding sheet I receievd for next Sunday's 500yd match we have 40 entrants. Several shooters from France are now joining us on a regular basis.

The Long Range Rifles Branch of the MLAGB is also healthy. We have about 36 entrants for the 30 shot 1000 yard match next Saturday.

Short range rifle and musket events are not supported so well. People seem to be content to stay at their own ranges and rather than travel to compete, although pistol events are well supported.

Legisation is restrictive, although not nearly so bad as some of those living outside the UK seem to think it is! A while back someone having looked at my Research Press web site, emailed to congratulate me on still being able to write about guns despite the communist take over in the UK and total ban on shooting!! :shocking:

David

 

[ResearchPress]

I seat my card wads on the powder, then load the bullet seperately. When pushing the card down, make sure you have a rod of large enough diameter... you don't want to tip the wad on its side half way down the barrel.

Sights are expensive unfortunatley, but a good set of sights will transform the shooting of the rifle, especially if you are still using the open sights. Below is a picture of the Goodwin reproduction sight I had on my Parker-Hale Volunteer. The sight was made by UK gunsmith Rex Holbrook.

Bullets should be slightly under bore size, and push down the bore with not much more pressure than the weight of the ram rod. I only clean down to the chamber after I've finished shooting. One common loading method is to load powder, then wad. Next wipe the bore with a damp patch (the tight fitting wad will seal the powder in), then a dry one if you wish. I use a dry one when shooting paper patched bullets. Finally seat the bullet. If cleaning down to the breech between shots, you might want to cap off before loading again to keep the nipple clear.

Have fun!

David

 

[ResearchPress]

Above: An original Whitworth match rifle

Muzzle loading match rifles, top to bottom: Intermarco Creedmoor, custom built rifle by S. Gardiner of London, Pedersoli Gibbs.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

That's what I figured was the procedure. I have done it that way before, but unfortunately was using a very thin wad and an undersized rod tip. And I did get some wads cocked sideways. Then I loaded them with the bullet which helped but was not much of an improvement. I'll be in better shape this time.

As for the sights, there's no substitution for good sights. For now, what with being in a financial bind, I may keep the globe sight and modify the rear sight so as to get a better sight picture. A little farther down the road I'll get a good Vernier aperature sight. I'm going to be shooting just short range and mid-range for the present. By the way, that is a beautiful Volunteer in the picture as well as the rifles in your next post. And the Goodwin sight looks to be a very well made one.

My bullets are just a tad tight for my taste, but that's what the swage sizes to. They're just at the diameter at the flats; .451-.452. Also, I just clean the chamber after shooting too. I never thought of wiping with a damp patch after loading the powder. Of course, that's because I don't use an over powder wad on any of my other guns. I'll keep that in mind when I get back to the range.

I would like to make a swage of about .447-.448 diameter, but it is hard to find a reamer with the proper taper for that size hole. Guess I'll have to make one or make a tiny boring bar. I'll not give up. Meanwhile, I'll try to make do with the tight factory swage.

Thanks for the tips! And good luck at your next match!

Bob

 

[Tumblernotch]

There's something else I forgot to add. I made a copper drop tube to use in loading. It keeps powder from sticking to a damp bore and it slightly compacts the powder. I'm not used to using it and have forgotten it a few times, but I'm getting better at remembering. ::