loooooooooong range gun

[bulletman]

what is the longest range for a flinter or percussion gun, Did they shoot conicals ?, minnies ? and what gun was it, is it ?

 

[jim gray]

I don't know what the longest range muzzleloader was, but the Whitworth made some pretty impressive shots during the Civil War. Whitworth shooters were reputed to have made shots at 700-1000 yards. I believe Gen. John Sedgwick was killed at almost 500 yards at Spotsylvania; according to legend he was chiding his men for hiding behind a stone wall and his last words were, "They couldn't hit an elephant at that range."

 

[Slamfire]

The Palma Cup matches were held at 1000 yards, but you have to have precise range data. If you were in the field a mistake of 25 yards in range could lead to a miss of several YARDS high.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I would put my money on the Whitworth. As flash in the pan said, Gen. Sedgwick was reportedly killed by one though I have read it was from 800 yds. During the siege of Charleston, SC, Whitworth sharpshooters in riflepits in the sandhills in front of Battery Wagner. Capt. Ashe, commanding some of the sharpshooters there said,"I had been instrumental in having our agent in England, Major Huse, obtain for us some telescopes for rifles, and he sent besides half a dozen Whitworth rifles with telescopes affixed. Two were given to me. I had some sandbags removed from a wall (of Wagner), leaving two holes,at each of which a marksman with a Whitworth stood ready to fire. A hat raised on a ramrod drew the fire of some Federal sharpshooter, who then would look to see the effect, and quick would come the Whitworth bullet. Those guns were fatal at fifteen hundred yards." This is just one account. I have an excellent book about this rifle and it's users that lists many episodes. There is not enough space here to tell them all. Normally, open sights were used up to 800 to 1000 yards (you really have to have good eyesight for that)and above that range the Davidson telescopic sight was used up to about 1600 yds. Sharpshooters armed with these caused so many casualties at long range, Federal officers directed that counter-battery be used against individual sharpshooters. Kerr rifles were also very long range guns and were used with great effect, but I believe the Whitworth will always be the king of the long range plinkers.
:imo: :m2c:
I almost forgot. The Whitworth was .451 cal., hexagonal bore, 1 in 20" twist. Bullet sizes varied, but averaged about 530 grs. Some of the bullets were hex shaped to mechanically fit the bore but most were cylindrical. Also they were paper patched. Some had shallow cavities in the base, some were flat based. There is one variation that is double-ended (pointed on both ends). The powder charge varied from 70 to 85 grs. The recoil, especially when using a 560 gr. and 85 grs. of powder (FFFg) is punishing, especially when fired prone or from a bench. Sharpshooters were recognized by the black eyes they sported because they used little or no eye relief with their scopes. This gun has a peculiar ringing sound when it is fired, similiar to the sound of a brass field piece. It is both a joy and a terror to shoot. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to try mine at long range. Okay, I'm done now. :yakyak:

 

Ned Roberts book, "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" covers in detail the 1874 match between the US and Ireland in 1874. While we used breechloaders, altho some were loaded from the muzzle, the Irish used Rigby muzzleloaders. The match was fired at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. No scope sights were used. The groups were quite good.

Based upon my experience shooting my Shiloh Sharps rifles at 500-1000 yards which approximate the same load as the Whitworths, 520 gr. bullet over 81 grs. of GOEX Ctg. in my 45-90 and 61 grs. of the same powder under a 410 gr. bullet in my 40-70 I see no reason to doubt what's been written regarding the long range exploits of muzzleloaders when shooting long for caliber bullets in a 1-20 twist for 45 and a 1-16 for the 40.

I wouldn't call the recoil punishing in my Sharps but it's significantly more than the same charge with a round ball. The Whitworth rifle may weigh considerably less than either of my Sharps as they go between 9 and 10 lbs.

At any rate, long range shooting is one heck of an education and a whale of a lot of fun!!

Vic

 

[Tumblernotch]

I got to shoot a Sharps 45-70 once though only at 100 yds. It had a cross hair front sight and an aperature rear sight. My first shot was a small foam cup full of mud which vanished when I touched the set trigger. That gun was a joy to shoot. I just finished repairing my Whitworth and am planning to do some test shooting this weekend or next. I'm still limited at this time to 100 yds. I have to hold quite low with the factory sights which are a standard Enfield type rear sight and a globe front sight which I have adjusted as high as I can go for 100 yds. I am thinking of machining a new front sight with a higher blade. I have always had trouble with the location of military rear sights, and as I get older the problem gets worse. I am also thinking of installing a tang mounted aperature sight at some point. I don't reenact with this piece any more, so I'm not concerned with period correctness. As for the recoil you mentioned, the problem with the Whitworth is not so much it's weight(about 10 lbs). The stock configuration plays a big part. There's not as much drop in the stock as there is in a Springfield, Sharps or other civilian arms. My shoulder is in a more direct line with the bore than on these other guns. The 70 gr. charge improves this condition. It is more than heavy enough for most ranges.
There is a range within an hour of where I live that has a 500 yd. section that I may get to go to at some point. I want to get it dialed in at the shorter ranges first but I definitely want to try it out at long range. It has been a long time since I've gotten to shoot this thing and I'm looking forward to doing it again.

 

[musketman]

One thing I would like to add is that even if a gun is capable of shooting 1000 yards or so, doesn't mean that it can humanely kill at that distance...

During the Civil War (or any war), it really didn't matter if you killed something "humanely" or not, but for hunting purposes, the retained energy at 1000 yards may be less than ideal for a humane kill...

 

Paper and steel don't know about retained energy at 1000 yards.....please don't tell them
:crackup:

 

[flaming canvas]

Paper and steel don't know about retained energy at 1000 yards.....please don't tell them
:crackup:

Paper may not know, but steel sihoulettes do.

 

[riarcher]

Amen. ::

 

[Slamfire]

You can probably find the bullet mark on both paper and steel, but I doubt if either will roll over and play dead. :nono:

 

[Tumblernotch]

I doubt that ol' Sedgwick did either.

 

[Gary]

The British tested their Whitworths at 1880 yards and were hitting their targets and driving the bolts deep into them at that distance. That's no typo guys. Eighteen hundred and eighty yards. Over a mile.

OK, here's the catch. Target was thirty-two feet long by two feet high. Solid oak. Painted white for visibility. Represented a platoon standing in formation (size of chest for about 20 men).

Continuing on what KanawhaRanger says, Capt. Ashe's statement regarded the Whitworths at Battery Wagner (Morris Island, South Carolina). The Yankees complained about being hit at 1500 (fifteen hundred) yards by those Whitworth guns.

Regarding Papa John Sedgwick, I have doubts as to who shot him, but that'll be in Chapter 11 of my book.

 

[jimbo15563]

Would be possible to get a Whitworth barrel custom-made for an H&A underhammer? If so, would the cost be prohibitive? Any ideas on who might do that kind of work?

Thanks,
Jimbo

 

[Tumblernotch]

:RO: I almost got into a fistfight with a coworker years ago because he didn't believe what I said about the accuracy of these rifles. It is hard to believe that such shooting can be done with a muzzleloader. Like you said, the yankees were complaining about casualties at that range. They weren't hitting somebody every time they shot, but we have to remember that the sharpshooters were under very heavy artillery fire. Seems to me that if the sharpshooters weren't doing some damage to the yankees, those guys wouldn't be wasting the taxpayers' money by directing counterbattery fire against individual shooters. As it was, they inflicted pretty serious casualties regardless of the iron that was being sent their way. I wish I had the time and that there was space on this Forum to recount all of the exploits that I have in front of me. The best accounts come from Federal officers as normally they tended to not praise the ability of their enemies. Here is an excerpt from a Federal Colonel's report from the battle of Liberty Gap: "When we were within one-half or three-fourths of a mile of the enemy, the effect of their sharpshooters was terrible."
Now about the platoon sized target. You are right, but then, how many of us could even see it at a mile and 400 yds. without a spotting scope or at least a strong pair of binoculars? And as for Gen. Sedgwick, nobody knows for certain what weapon killed him, though I have read somewhere that the bullet hole under his eye was made by a smaller caliber weapon than a rifle musket. Who knows? There is even speculation that John Reynolds was killed at Gettysburg by a Whitworth though not proven. He was killed in the area in front of Archer's Brigade and there was a Whitworth issued to a soldier in the 7th Tennessee. Just another possibility. There were reports and interviews with some of the sharpshooters supposedly involved, but we'll probably never know the truth.
What amazes me more than the accuracy of the rifles is the steady hands and sharp eyes of the men who used them, not to mention their ability to estimate range and the effect of light and wind. Although this was the most accurate and flat shooting gun in the world at the time, compared to a modern centerfire, especially the new sniper rifles, the Whitworth had a tragectory like a mortar. The shooter really had to know his onions!
As I was writing this, I ran across a list of the Whitworth rifles made at Enfield and found one (extremely rare) that I would love to have. It had a .564 bore and was rifled 1 in 25". It gives me chills.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Jimbo, to be perfectly honest, I don't know. I don't know for sure how Parker-Hale made their Whitworths but I've been told that they used the same processes as well as much of the original tooling and gauges as those used by Whitworth's company and Enfield. I may be wrong, but I believe it to be so. I can give a brief description of how the Whitworth's barrel was originally made: "The barrel was cast from molten steel and compressed while in a fluid state. The compression set up internal stresses which were resistant to the forces of powerful loads." Whitworth cannon barrels were made the same way. I doubt that any barrel makers in this country have the means to build one. I suppose it could be possible to bore and rifle a barrel in this style if the tooling is available. I know of several barrel makers who undoubtably have the skills if it is possible. It makes my mouth water thinking of a heavy octagon bench gun with that rifling in it. I would say that if it is available, it would be expensive, how much, I don't know. Some of these guys on here that deal with barrel makers more may have an idea. I wish I could be of more help.
:thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I've been watching the on-line auctions for years hoping to find a Parker-Hale Whitworth barrel for sale. I thought there might be some extras kicking around. So far no luck.

 

Who would want them to roll over and play dead at 120 yards over 1/2 mile.....then you'd spend all your time resetting targets. All I ever wanted to see was where I hit.

Given a good set of aperature sights, correct sight settings, an accurate rifle, (such as a Whitworth, Sharps, Ballard or Rolling Block ), and knowledge of the range I can see no reason even I could not hit a man consistently out to 700-800 yards. Done it and seen it done toooo many times at my old range and at matches. Out to 1000 yards there is enough of a percentage of my shots that are going to hit a man sized target for me to be convinced. A better rifleman would do lots better than I have.

Vic

 

[Tahquamenon]

Not trying to start a fistfight, as also a modern ML shooter, I often wonder why the Modern ML's catch so much flak for shooting so far and accurate at a measly 200 yards? :hmm:

I'm looking at getting into a long range perc rifle for target fun. I have enough room for a 500 yard range setup.

Any recommendations as to a long range rifle make and model?

 

[Tumblernotch]

Don't give up. A man never knows when one might just turn up. Around where I live, you're lucky if you find anything in that line. But I still look!
:thumbsup: