Looking for Information on an unmarked gun

Discussion in 'Firearm Identification' started by bart howard, Jan 8, 2020.

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum by donating:

  1. Jan 8, 2020 #1

    bart howard

    bart howard

    bart howard

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    A friend picked up a muzzle loader a while back thinking it was a rifle. it is a smooth bore, with no markings or Man. stamp. I put some of the sizes in the pictures. trying to find out more information about it. the bore is .54" which if a shotgun would put it around a 28 gauge. the outside dia, at the end of the barrel is around .870" and next to the nipple is 1.23"
    I really don't know what question to ask, or even where to start looking for answers, but after looking at this forum, I figured why not ask, someone that might know a hole lot more than me...
    the next question is about an replacement nipple. it appears that it has metric 1.0 threads. but the outside dia. of the threads is 7.25mm, or .2850". from what I am seeing on some web pages is not standard. I am looking at making an replacement on my lathe. with either 4140 or 416 SS. but it would be nice to find one already made....
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Jan 8, 2020 #2

    Phil Coffins

    Phil Coffins

    Phil Coffins

    40 Cal.

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    296
    Location:
    Colorado
    Could be a one off or prototype that was made up to drum up business. Looks well made from around the mid 1800s.
     
  3. Jan 8, 2020 #3

    44-henry

    44-henry

    44-henry

    45 Cal.

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    992
    Likes Received:
    17
    Track of the Wolf sells oversize taps to recut these threads. It might be easier to start with one that is close and than recut it to a known size. They should have matching nipples available that will than fit and that will save you some time.
     
  4. Jan 8, 2020 #4

    bart howard

    bart howard

    bart howard

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0

    I have been looking at their web page, it really opened my eyes to see how many different styles are out their. recutting the threads might be something to look into... making some new nipples is not to hard, the ones I have made were out of some 1018 that I had handy, but after looking at the Track of the Wolf, I see where they are using 416 SS,
    when looking at their web page, I was trying to find a contact number, or email. to send them the info I have and see what they would recommend.
    I would like to search out all the options, and then let my friend decide which way he wants go...

    up until now, the only black powder rifle that I have dealt with was a Lyman Great Plains 50 cal. that I put together as a kit back in the 70's. Had a lot of fun with it back in the day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  5. Jan 8, 2020 #5

    bart howard

    bart howard

    bart howard

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    a couple of other things that have me wondering about this gun, when I first seen it, I thought it might be a shotgun, where there is no rear sight. only a tang on the front of the barrel. then looking at the barrel thickness, it is thicker than any picture of shotgun barrels that I have seen.
    I always assumed that rifles needed to have rifling in the barrel to help with accuracy. and I cannot see any rifling in this barrel.

    another question is on disassembly for cleaning. I have not tried to remove the couple of bolts that are holding the hammer plate. But I really am not seeing any simple method to remove the barrel from the stock, for cleaning. at least like what I would expect to see.
     
  6. Jan 10, 2020 #6

    garra

    garra

    garra

    40 Cal. MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    2
    What i have done when faced with an odd sized nipple is to use the original as the portion to thread into the rifle and cut drill and tap a new hole into it for a new nipple that I could currently buy. Make a old nipple sleeve for the new nipple.
     
    Treestalker likes this.
  7. Jan 11, 2020 at 1:08 AM #7

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    36 Cal.

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    89
    Location:
    Klamath Falls, Oregon
    It sure looks like the barrel is threaded into or onto the receiver. If it was me I would not attempt to disassemble the barrel from the action. There does have to be some way to get to the action innards, though. Did you drop the ramrod down the barrel to make sure that it isn't loaded? I really like it, whatever it turns out to be.
     
  8. Jan 11, 2020 at 6:21 AM #8

    bart howard

    bart howard

    bart howard

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    dang, that is about the simplest solution, I have been having fun with my lathe getting the correct dia. of threads cut. now just to make a sleeve.. thanks for the idea..
     
  9. Jan 11, 2020 at 8:03 AM #9

    bart howard

    bart howard

    bart howard

    32 Cal

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    From what we could see with a bore scope, the barrel is probably threaded onto a stub coming off the action, and the inside of the barrel looks real good, actually even better than the outside.
    To get to the action, of this rifle was rather simple, it needed to be cocked to remove one of the screws. the spring tang was binding on it. when not cocked.
    as you can see the action is very simple with the rotating dial.

    An other thing I noticed there is an brass screw, that is threaded near the back of the action. the threads might be 6-32? but if this rifle was meant to be a 54 cal. I could almost see that might have been where a rear site might have once been mounted??? it is almost hard to see in the picture, but there is an small dimple, inline with the brass screw, "that would have given 2 screws to mount the rear site?? anyway just thinking out-loud...
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Jan 12, 2020 at 12:38 AM #10

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    36 Cal.

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    89
    Location:
    Klamath Falls, Oregon
    I bet it was a prototype built when cartridge guns were starting to come into use. It looks pretty modern. It would be expensive to produce with so much machining. It looks like something a major arms producer might have done - the receiver makes me think of Remington just because of the shape. Hopefully you can get it identified. Whoever built this was no ametuer in a backwoods shop (in my uneducated opinion). That might explain the barrel - they just didn't bother to rifle it.
     
  11. Jan 12, 2020 at 4:13 AM #11

    poker

    poker

    poker

    40 cal - b MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    62
    You know, you might be surprised what some people in backwoods shops can accomplish. Quite often much more than a factory setting.
     
  12. Jan 12, 2020 at 3:58 PM #12

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    russellshaffer

    36 Cal.

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    89
    Location:
    Klamath Falls, Oregon
    Good point Poker. I was trying to say that it took a well equipped shop to build this gun. I don't see how it could be done without some type of milling machine, for example. But you are certainly correct that it didn't have to be Colt or Remington.
     
  13. Jan 12, 2020 at 6:01 PM #13

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Moderator Staff Member MLF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    29,369
    Likes Received:
    1,930
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    This gun looks like one of the types that were made by Allen or Allen & Wheelock in the 1840-1860 time period.

    Although the Allen and Allen & Wheelock guns had the company name marked on the barrel, it is possible the barrel has been replaced in the last 150 years so the markings would not exist on the gun.

    The various companies created by Ethan Allen (not the Ethan Allen from the revolutionary war period) made single shot pistols, pepperboxes, revolvers, rifles and shotguns.
    The modern Mowrey steel or brass framed guns that were made in the 1990's were based on the Allen rifles.
     

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page



arrow_white