Longrifles made in Pennsylvania?

[Nameless Hunter]

This thread has brought back a memory of somethingI had read before. Here is a good read on iron (and steel) production in the American colonies. England used to get most of her iron from Sweden, but an early 18th century war with Sweden put an end to that. So, English companies invested heavily in increasing production of pig iron in the colonies (which was very good quality iron BTW. By the time of the AWI, the colonies were the 5th largest producer of iron in the world.

http://www.revolutionarywarjournal.com/iron-forge-in-colonial-america/

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Adding to what Rich wrote, if the earliest colonists in Virginia and Massachusetts had to rely on making everything from scratch, they would have quickly gone extinct. Partly because the colonists themselves did not know how to do many of the tasks and manufacturing needed and even if they did, they struggled to adapt them to the New World conditions. Both English colonies required a strong lifeline to England. Of course colonists showed great resourcefulness and perseverance but that likely would not have been enough to keep their communities intact. Reading accounts by leaders in Virginia and New England from arrival until King Philip's War (1675-76) in New England and Bacon's Rebellion (1675-76) illustrates how dependent they were on England particularly for guns and arms. There were skilled gun smiths and armorers in the colonies but they mostly repaired arms. Moreover, neither colony was established by immigrants from a rifle culture. Immigrants very familiar with rifles did not arrive until Penn sought out Germans to colonize the frontiers of SE Pennsylvania during the first decades of the 18th century.

dave

 

[SOLANCO]

Hi,
I did a little digging on Caspar Wistar who I mentioned in a previous post. He apprenticed as a forester in Germany, which meant he also arranged and conducted hunts for his liege. Apparently, he was very familiar with fine German hunting guns and owned a fine swivel breech "Wender" rifle from Germany. He emigrated to Pennsylvania colony in 1717 and arrived virtually penniless. He began working making brass buttons and the capital from that allowed him to set up a glass making works, the first in America. Wistarberg glass, located in NJ, became famous locally and made Wistar a fortune.
Here are some examples of Wistarberg glass:

He invested that fortune in lands and retail stores in Philadelphia and New York and became one of the wealthiest men in America. He actively imported German rifles to America. According to Marshall family lore, Edward Marshall likely knew Wistar and complained that he could not obtain any good rifle barrels made locally, that is SE Pennsylvania! So he ordered a barrel and components from Germany, possibly through Wistar who favored production by Johann Adolph Doll.

dave

The Wistar name lives on in Philadelphia in the renowned Wistar Institute.

 

[excess650]

IIRC, in one of the Lancaster books is information regarding the Bakers. Apparently there was an iron ore deposit along the Susquehanna, and they wanted to set up a boring mill on the Pequea Creek. This was 1718, and part of Chester County as Lancaster County wasn't formed until 1728.

According to an article in the Philadelphia paper, Wolfgang Haga knocked over a lamp and started a fire that ignited powder and blew up his shop in Reading in 1752. Reading didn't exist until 1748, so Haga was working there prior to Dickert's apprenticeship, and before JP Beck was born.

 

[SOLANCO]

IIRC, in one of the Lancaster books is information regarding the Bakers. Apparently there was an iron ore deposit along the Susquehanna, and they wanted to set up a boring mill on the Pequea Creek. This was 1718, and part of Chester County as Lancaster County wasn't formed until 1728.

According to an article in the Philadelphia paper, Wolfgang Haga knocked over a lamp and started a fire that ignited powder and blew up his shop in Reading in 1752. Reading didn't exist until 1748, so Haga was working there prior to Dickert's apprenticeship, and before JP Beck was born.

Local lore has it that there was a boring mill in Providence Township, Lancaster County situated on a stream near the current intersection of Pennsy Road and SR 272.

 

[rich pierce]

General question that could be off-topic: what sorts of products might a boring mill produce? We have a gun-centric view. I’m guessing there would be considerable expense in setting up a boring mill. If I set one up I’d want to be turning out hundreds of items a month. Yet we know gunsmiths were importing gun barrels during this period. So there seems to be some tension between the presence of boring mills, suggesting to many that these were for producing gun barrels only, and low colonial gun production and barrel importation in the early 1700s.

Cannons come to mind.

 

[excess650]

boring mill for boring gun barrels

 

[excess650]

General question that could be off-topic: what sorts of products might a boring mill produce? We have a gun-centric view. I’m guessing there would be considerable expense in setting up a boring mill. If I set one up I’d want to be turning out hundreds of items a month. Yet we know gunsmiths were importing gun barrels during this period. So there seems to be some tension between the presence of boring mills, suggesting to many that these were for producing gun barrels only, and low colonial gun production and barrel importation in the early 1700s.

Cannons come to mind.

"In 1717, two brothers, Robert and Samuel Baker, purchased 300 acres near the confluence of the Pequea Creek and the Susquehanna River.......Robert and his son Caleb operated a gunshop on this site. On August 15, 1719, the Bakers petitioned Jacob Taylor, the Penn'sProvincial Secretary, for approval to dam the Pequea Creek and erect a shop for making and "boaring" gun barrels. Two years later permission was granted to mine and refine iron on the site....." Robert Baker died....1728. The court-ordered inventory of his estate lists both Robert and Caleb as gunsmiths. Caleb continued to operate the business until 1741.....

In addition, well over 20 gun barrel forgers can be found in the county tax records prior to 1750."

In 1717 "Pequea" would have been part of Chester County, Lancaster County formed in 1729, and Berks County in 1752.

"The LeFevers (French) were among the first men to make rifles in Lancaster County...had been building guns in Lampeter Township since 1731".

 

[rich pierce]

Excess650, great documentation. I wonder if we know where all those barrels went, whether they were for export (unlikely given the mercantile system), for muskets, or for rifles. Where did the hundreds to thousands of guns supposedly made in Pennsylvania pre-1760 end up, and what sorts of guns were they? Guess we will never know. But the mystery of why Wistar was importing rifles and rifled barrels at the same time as these boring mills were in operation remains.

 

[excess650]

According to early KRA BOD member and President, "The early guns made in the Pequea Valley of Pennsylvania were nearly identical to the German Jaeger rifles."

This strikes me odd because the name Baker would seem to be English, BUT, they were only some of the "Lancaster" makers prior to 1750.

"Early rifle barrels excavated from graves of Indians along the Susquehanna are almost copies of European barrels."

Where are, or where did all of the early guns go? Things were used and re-used until they were useless. Rev War gun prices were in the $10-$15 range when wages are about $0.15 per hour.

Committee of Safety for the Commonwealth (July 10, 1776) resolved as follows:

......this resolve, or order, was issued to all counties of Pennsylvania instructing the local Committee of Safety appointee to visit each resident in a township with a gunsmith to appraise, purchase or confiscate all all arms found..."

Basically, ALL arms were to be taken from the population for use in the Rev War.

Between the very earliest and the Rev War is where the transition occurred to the "longrifle".

 

[Stophel]

"Baker" is the same as "Backer/Becker/Beck". Just anglicized. Same meaning.

 

[springfield art]

The original John Schreit rifle was made near Reading and is dated 1761, the earliest known American made longrifle.

Wow. Din't know that! Thanks.

 

[excess650]

The original John Schreit rifle was made near Reading and is dated 1761, the earliest known American made longrifle.

SIGNED and DATED

Schreit was known to be in Reading by 1756, and Haga had already blown up his own house and shop there in 1752 when Reading was but 4 years in existence.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Reading is the real unknown and mystery factor here. With the exception of the Edward Marshall rifle and another gun very early attributed to Albrecht, I think the early rifles that survive from Reading are among the earliest American long rifles that survive. I am specifically thinking of RCA #20, 21, and 22. I think Reading and Berks County deserve a lot more attention. On a slightly different note, there is a really fine piece of scholarship published by Scott Gordon about Jacob Dickert that describes much of the context around the early Pennsylvania gun trade. Scott is a professor of history at Lehigh University and is an authority on the Moravian society in Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Christian's Spring, PA.
https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/jacob-dickert/It is worth the read.

dave

 

[oldwood]

Might as well add this to the confusion. The American longrifle went through an evolution in Pa.. Initially , Immigrant gunsmiths moved to Pa. from East Central Europe and brought the hunting rifles traditionally used there , mostly by those hired by princes and kings who controlled the centers of power there. Those who controlled the kingdoms there hired the gunsmiths and controlled the guilds that made everything including guns. At the top of the food chain , If you weren't of the Church of Rome religion , you would never be allowed to become , say , a guild trained gunsmith , unless you were a "sanctioned" person as appointed by some king , duke , prince , baron ,etc. Why , because , they controlled the money. One main reason the Moravian Church and it's missionary movement came to America , was freedom to be of help to folks here , where there was a definite need. ( One of the tenants in it's Mission Statement.) Moravian records show the Mission brought several trained gunsmiths with them. You could be candidate for training or work at the Mission gun shops no matter if you were a German Baptist, Lutheran , or any other non-sanctioned religion. With in 2 years of establishing the Pa. mission , another was begun near Winston Salem , N.C. called Bethabara. Same structure as Bethlehem , Pa. .
All that said , there is evidence of a transformation of the traditional German rifle to the American long rifle as we know it. A classic evidence of this "transition" is the Edward Marshal Indian Walk Rifle ca. around 1738 AD. . KRA collectors maintain this is an example of a classic "Transitional" American rifle. Not a long barreled , small caliber, long rifle, but a medium length barrel , of larger caliber , on a robust size stock. A rifle in "transition" from one venue to a more appropriate longer , smaller caliber , longer range gun more suited to the American wilderness. The American long rifle became a protector of settlers , as well as a provider of food and income. It's transition took time from Central Europe , to America.
Another unusual event , courtesy of Kit Ravenshear , Queen's Night Armorer to the Tower of London Museum was , the British hired a noted Gunsmith , Durs Egg, an East Central European , to make a Jager sized rifle with an English signature Bess style butt , sometime before Ferguson breech loader caught their attention. The Egg Rifle had the attributes of a Central European short rifle. My comment and question is , why didn't the British armorers do the development of the Egg rifle on their own? I'll never know as my good friend and mentor , Kit , is gone to the ages. ................oldwood

 

[rich pierce]

The Marshall rifle, if stocked identically in English walnut, would fit right in with many German rifles of 1740-1760 more or less. John Bivins first used the term “transitional rifle” as far as I know and I wish he hadn’t. The development or evolution of the American longrifle was never a linear process. But, I don’t like the term “American jaeger” either. Guess I don’t like classifying so generally. A great many summary articles since the 1940s have simplified and dummied down the widely varied and branched development and changes in styles of longrifles in America. Generalizations and undocumented claims abound in the literature. “They needed longer barrels to burn inferior powder.” “They used longer barrels because the indigenous Americans were used to long barreled trade smoothbores.” “They used longer barrels because they were shooting at longer ranges.” “They started using smaller calibers to save lead and powder.” Interesting and plausible hypotheses without a shred of period documentation.
There are still a good many early colonial longrifles that cannot or have not been assigned to a maker or region. The musician’s rifle, the tulip rifle, the Natty Bumpo rifle, and a couple un-shared rifles have not been attributed and these could range from 1740-1760 pretty easily. Others have been attributed, but not beyond normal skepticism- #19 in Rifles of Colonial America for example, could be a 1750s-1760s smooth rifle. Some of these mysteries may become more clear over time, but so many early rifles are not signed, making attributions and dating a guessing game.

 

[Artificer]

the British hired a noted Gunsmith , Durs Egg, an East Central European , to make a Jager sized rifle with an English signature Bess style butt , sometime before Ferguson breech loader caught their attention. The Egg Rifle had the attributes of a Central European short rifle. My comment and question is , why didn't the British armorers do the development of the Egg rifle on their own? I'll never know as my good friend and mentor , Kit , is gone to the ages. ................oldwood

I may be of a little help here.

My Sister has become our family historian and she has delved deeply into Ancestry.com and many small to good size historical societies here in America and some back in the old world. She comes to me when there is early language she isn't familiar with and on early period civilian and military cultural terminology and some social terms. I had asked her before, but there didn't seem to be any gunsmiths in our heritage.

Then about 2-3 years ago after helping her with some period terminology, I was lamenting we didn't have any gunsmiths in our family lines and she said, "Oh, forgot to mention something I came across recently. Have you ever heard of a gunsmith in England by the name of "Durse something?" I almost swallowed my tongue and replied, "Are you talking about Durs Egg?" Rather casually she replied, "Ummm.....yes, that may be it. I ran across his name a couple months ago and he's related to us." I almost fell out of my chair and probably looked like I had swallowed a toad. I started a rapid fire series of questions and with the little bit she could remember, it sure sounded like Durs Egg, though she didn't quite remember where she had read it.

A couple of weeks later, she had found the reference and called me. Well, I'm not a descendent of Durs Egg after all. It seems one of Dur's female descendants married my 4th or 5th Great Grandfather's BROTHER. Still my sister had some interesting information.

Durs Egg was part of the Protestant movement and I think he was an Anabaptist, though that latter may not be correct. Durs got out of the worst religious persecution when he studied in Paris, but France was still a Catholic nation. The group he joined planned on coming to the New World, but couldn't afford to buy passage and have some money left over all at once. So it was decided they should go to England first, because it was a Protestant country and then they could earn enough money to go on to the New World after some time.

Durs set up his gun shop in London, England in 1772. This in time to bring the latest continental innovations with him, but here is a little tidbit some might now know. After a couple of years, he worked with an English Master Gunsmith (whose name my Sister did not have) for about a year and maybe another half year, so Durs could learn to build and decorate guns good enough not only for the English Gentry, but good enough for the Royal Family as well. Durs most likely finished that study work before he began working with Ferguson. That much we can document.

What I can't document and is only my own speculation is that since Durs was still rather new to the London Trade, but having studied in two other countries and from an English Master once he got to London, he may have been a gunsmith both qualified to work with Ferguson and perhaps as bargain priced as Ferguson could find with that ability, but also Durs may have seen it as a way to enhance his own prestige.

When the religious group Durs had come to England with made enough money and planned on going to America, Durs decided a more prosperous future for him was to remain in England. He had done some work for the Royal Family and in 1820, was named Gunmaker to King George IV. So Durs' decision to stay in England worked out very well for him, though some of his descendants did actually move to the New World.

Gus

 

[oldwood]

Rich.........Can't agree with you more. I've studied this history we share , for 50+ years , and sometimes I'm still lost in it . There's clouds of opinion shrouding reality in many cases. All we have is an example or two , to contemplate truth. My addiction to history, m/l building ,shooting , studying , and attempts at 18th century hunting , have been fun and educational for me. Muzzleloaders and all surrounding them , is where I hid from the daily stress of my occupation of 41+ years. The stress would have crushed me much earlier than it did , w/o my m/l activities............Best to ya....oldwood

 

[oldwood]

Gus............Thanks for the Durse Egg history. I've stocked and hunted w/ several historic m/l rifles attributed to D-E's expertise. It always amazed and frustrated me there wasn't easily noted history for D-E. Again , Thanks for the help w/ this subject...............oldwood

 

[SOLANCO]

"In 1717, two brothers, Robert and Samuel Baker, purchased 300 acres near the confluence of the Pequea Creek and the Susquehanna River.......Robert and his son Caleb operated a gunshop on this site. On August 15, 1719, the Bakers petitioned Jacob Taylor, the Penn'sProvincial Secretary, for approval to dam the Pequea Creek and erect a shop for making and "boaring" gun barrels. Two years later permission was granted to mine and refine iron on the site....."

I live minutes from this area and would dearly love any more precise location information. In the last mile or two the creek drops precipitously through a steep and deep gully which pierces high hills overlooking the river. Their is little usable flat land there. A good location would be in what is now the Pequea Creek campground. But there are no historical markers. I have not seen any obvious sign of digging or mining for ore in the vicinity.