longer range hunting

[Herb]

Here is my friend Carl Jackson with his .50 flintlock I built for him. He killed this deer at a lasered 165 yards (by me about a week later). He saw the deer walk out of private cropland onto BLM land and had just a couple of minutes to kneel down and take the shot. The deer was walking uphill away from him and Carl held on the back of his head but the ball dropped about 18" and hit just below the tail, ranging about 24" through the body. Carl misjudged the range, thinking the buck was a lot closer. But he did it. This spot is 18 miles from home, I also hunted near there the last time I drew a permit, 6 or 8 years ago. Ain't no sneaking up on them out there and if you want to fill a tag, you have to be able to confidently shoot farther than 100 yards.

A .50 roundball will kill deer at this range. Zeroing at about 125 yards allows less holdover at reasonable ranges (say up to 175 yards or so with no wind and a steady hold), and the higher the velocity the flatter the trajectory. If I were doing this, I'd use a .50 instead of a .54 or .58, and I have done a lot of target shooting with both at 200 or even 300 yards. It is easier to get 2000 fps with a .50 than a .54 or .58. Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual, volume 2, shows a 32" .50 barrel and a roundball getting 1991 fps with 120 grains of Goex 2F and 2045 fps with 120 grains of Goex 3F. And to those of you who say most of this higher velocity is lost before 100 yards, you need to check the drops of your low velocity loads against the high velocity at 100 to 200 yards.

 

[Dphar]

Here's some BC's provided by Lee.

.45 Cal-200gr=.280 BC
.45 Cal-250gr=.350 BC
.50 Cal-250gr=.286 BC
.50 Cal-320gr=.366 BC
.54 Cal-300gr=.294 BC
.54 Cal-380gr=.372 BC

The Sectional Density of a 380 gr 54 caliber bullet is about .186. If its a blunt bullet with grooves for lube it will a BC about equal to its SD. ML bullets used for hunting invariably have BCs about like the typical revolver bullet or a 38-40 WCF bullet OR LESS.
For example, here is a bullet with a .390 BC and a .205 SD. So unless the Lee bullets look like this (and they cannot and shoot accurately), their BCs are imaginary. hornady.com/store/6.5MM-.264-100-GR-A-MAX/
.372 is very high for a BP bullet and more what one would find in a 525-550 gr 45 caliber bullet with a SD at 525 gr of .359 and a streamlined nose. A blunt RN bullet will have a BC very close to its SD in most cases.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Hey all,

I have been lurking for quite some time and learning all I can. This forum is a wealth of information and I'm grateful for all that you do. Without it I would be lost.
I currently have a Pedersoli Bess carbine that I use for turkey hunting in the spring, a Uberti Walker and a Cabelas Investarms Hawken in .50 caliber. I am currently using the Investarms as my short range hunting rifle, but I want to look at getting something that is capable of deer hunting at extended ranges.
Currently a member is helping with a solution to the dilemma trying to replace the sights on the Cabelas rifle, but if you have any other solution I am all ears.
I am also considering another rifle for purchase. Does anyone own and hunt with .58 caliber rifles? My Cabelas has a Pedersoli Enfield 2 band that is 1:48 and it fits me like a glove. I am also considering looking at their Pedersoli Mississippi Rifle, I believe it is a 1:72 twist. I would love to hear some general opinions on the capabilities of these or similar rifles for hunting out to 175/200 yards. I shot a few deer this year and the ranges are usually around 150-250, but I would like to get away from my centerfire and go traditional all the way. I understand the drastic bullet drop and compensating for that may be very difficult, but I am the type that obsesses until I am proficient, or imposes limitation on what I can ethically do in hunting situations.
Thank you for your opinions. Without this forum I would be spending piles of money on Ballistol instead of using a member's moose milk recipe. I would also likely have given up on shooting these guns if I didn't have access to all of the load data I have seen contributed. You guys are awesome and appreciated. :bow:

I recommend a 260 Remington or a 280 Remington for ranges past 150 the 260 will easily stay on a deer to 500 at least and perhaps to 800 if the weather cooperated and the shooter has the range and a range table and how many minutes to come up on the scope. But I consider this (shots over 400) to be unethical and it seems that there are rumors that seep out of the "LR Hunting" craze (its hot in the west right now) indicating that not every animal shot is recovered. But this is not shown of film by the people doing TV shows about this.
Very few people can kill a deer RELIABLY past 130-150 yards with a TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADER no matter the projectile is.
When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era. The TYPICAL elongated bullet for ML rifles prior to the advent of the breech loader was the cloth patched picket, which for reasons I believe I have enumerated here in other posts, has very limited application for use off the rifle range.
But there are people who want to do what they do and will then convince themselves that "if they would have had it they would have used it".

Dan

 

[nkbj]

Jack Hinson apparently convinced himself that he needed a fifty with 100 grains of powder.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I recommend a 260 Remington or a 280 Remington for ranges past 150 the 260 will easily stay on a deer to 500 at least and perhaps to 800 if the weather cooperated and the shooter has the range and a range table and how many minutes to come up on the scope. But I consider this (shots over 400) to be unethical and it seems that there are rumors that seep out of the "LR Hunting" craze (its hot in the west right now) indicating that not every animal shot is recovered. But this is not shown of film by the people doing TV shows about this.
Very few people can kill a deer RELIABLY past 130-150 yards with a TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADER no matter the projectile is.
When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era. The TYPICAL elongated bullet for ML rifles prior to the advent of the breech loader was the cloth patched picket, which for reasons I believe I have enumerated here in other posts, has very limited application for use off the rifle range.
But there are people who want to do what they do and will then convince themselves that "if they would have had it they would have used it".

Dan

If we are not allowed to talk about inlines and Sabots they why are you talking about centerfire rifles? You post should be removed.

You said
"When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era."

The rifle and the load is considered traditional as far as this forum, and almost every game department is concerned. What your talking about AGAIN is HC/PC. To be very honest there are a lot of us here that don't care one bit about HC/PC.
Again you post should be removed for again violating the rules of the forum. Ron

 

[chickenmcnasty]

That looks like an awesome muley. Or terrain is similar, but it lacks the ground cover seen in that picture.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

Would the .54 have similar trajectory but more "retained energy" at the end of its path?

 

[rodwha]

Slightly more rainbow, but slightly better wind bucking and energy retention.

 

[54ball]

Ron,
I guess I'm one of those PC guys as I hunt with a flintlock 28 bore smoothbore with Spanish moss wads.
With that said 1860s era long range muzzleloaders interest me. I think they are the zenith of the traditional muzzleloading rifle.
It would be interesting to see what a 3 band Enfield, a Whitworth or a Volunteer Rifle could do loaded with 1860s loads and lots of practice.

IMHO it makes no difference if it's 20 yards or 250, as long as you can hit them clean.

 

[Black Jack]

I recommend a 260 Remington or a 280 Remington for ranges past 150 the 260 will easily stay on a deer to 500 at least and perhaps to 800 if the weather cooperated and the shooter has the range and a range table and how many minutes to come up on the scope. But I consider this (shots over 400) to be unethical and it seems that there are rumors that seep out of the "LR Hunting" craze (its hot in the west right now) indicating that not every animal shot is recovered. But this is not shown of film by the people doing TV shows about this.
Very few people can kill a deer RELIABLY past 130-150 yards with a TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADER no matter the projectile is.
When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era. The TYPICAL elongated bullet for ML rifles prior to the advent of the breech loader was the cloth patched picket, which for reasons I believe I have enumerated here in other posts, has very limited application for use off the rifle range.
But there are people who want to do what they do and will then convince themselves that "if they would have had it they would have used it".

Dan

If we are not allowed to talk about inlines and Sabots they why are you talking about centerfire rifles? You post should be removed.

You said
"When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era."

The rifle and the load is considered traditional as far as this forum, and almost every game department is concerned. What your talking about AGAIN is HC/PC. To be very honest there are a lot of us here that don't care one bit about HC/PC.
Again you post should be removed for again violating the rules of the forum. Ron

I would respectfully disagree. Centerfire rifles were mentioned only in the context of defining what constitutes the ethical and sportsmanlike use of traditional muzzleloaders in the taking of game animals. The focus of his remarks were clearly on traditional muzzleloaders regarding their practical use in the field. I would not consider this to be a very HC/PC issue either; it would apply equally to someone with a TC Hawken or a custom Lancaster.

 

[don hepler]

So, from where he was aiming and where he hit. He was basically throwing up a "Hale Mary", and got lucky. That"s the whole point, as some of us, are discouraging long shots. I'm glad he got the deer, but me personally, I wouldn't be bragging about it.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Back in the 60's my brother and I were deer hunting with our Dad. We spotted a deer way up high standing on a ridge. With the naked eye, it looked to be the size of a medium sized dog. One of us made a comment that it was too bad it was so far away. My brother who was 16 at the time raised his iron sight 06 and fired a shot. The deer went down as though "pole-axed". After a stunned silence, my Dad said " don't ever take a shot like that again". To this day when we get together to swap hunting memories that shot is never talked about.

 

[BrownBear]

Just tacking this on to the talk in the "wish I was smart enough to remember more" category.

Back in the 1960's I couldn't afford the price of admission for a suitable gun, but I hung with some guys who competed in 1,000 yard muzzleloader benchrest competition. And they were GOOD! All of them shot original Civil War era "sniper" rifles with conicals, and at the measured distance could land groups that would bring tears to the eyes of most modern shooters.

Somewhere in a Gun Digest there was an article complete with a few photos of the day President Lincoln climbed onto a viewing platform overlooking a battle near DC- don't remember which one. In any case, his guards had to hustle him off the platform when wood chips started to rain from the structure as the sniper bullets whizzed in from a long, long ways off. Someday I'll track that article down and reference it for folks here. Fascinating reading of a day that almost changed history.

I'm real interested in the start of the buffalo industry before guys started using cartridge guns. Lotta history there, but my poor research skills have left it pretty murky in my mind. Love to hear of any accounts of that era.

 

[bpd303]

I remember the History Channel had a special about Confederate snipers. This may be what you read. Long shots were possible and documented. https://www.thehistorychannelclub....pe/articleview/articleid/54/civil-war-snipers

 

[BrownBear]

I missed that show, but can probably track it down. Thanks!

The article I have somewhere was in a Gun Digest or similar back in the 1970's. Tells you more than you need to know about the status of my library right now! :rotf:

 

[Dphar]

I recommend a 260 Remington or a 280 Remington for ranges past 150 the 260 will easily stay on a deer to 500 at least and perhaps to 800 if the weather cooperated and the shooter has the range and a range table and how many minutes to come up on the scope. But I consider this (shots over 400) to be unethical and it seems that there are rumors that seep out of the "LR Hunting" craze (its hot in the west right now) indicating that not every animal shot is recovered. But this is not shown of film by the people doing TV shows about this.
Very few people can kill a deer RELIABLY past 130-150 yards with a TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADER no matter the projectile is.
When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era. The TYPICAL elongated bullet for ML rifles prior to the advent of the breech loader was the cloth patched picket, which for reasons I believe I have enumerated here in other posts, has very limited application for use off the rifle range.
But there are people who want to do what they do and will then convince themselves that "if they would have had it they would have used it".

Dan

If we are not allowed to talk about inlines and Sabots they why are you talking about centerfire rifles? You post should be removed.

You said
"When you have vernier tang sights and elongated bullets you are no longer using a TRADITIONAL ML HUNTING RIFLE that is TYPICAL of the era."

The rifle and the load is considered traditional as far as this forum, and almost every game department is concerned. What your talking about AGAIN is HC/PC. To be very honest there are a lot of us here that don't care one bit about HC/PC.
Again you post should be removed for again violating the rules of the forum. Ron

Inlines are also MLs is almost every state that has a ML season and are used side by side with sidelock guns. Why? Because the states don't care of people give them money for licenses and the people that make them have enough money to get this stuff "legal".
But this is not a sign they are traditional.
Like I said people have to do the "they would have used it if they had it" to make it fit. As does anyone else that has done the slightest modicum of research OR has used TRADITIONAL MLs shooting TRADITIONAL ML elongated bullets.
But of course facts often get in people's way when they have something they want to do.
The paper patched bullet used in a ML WITHOUT a false muzzle is no more traditional than a sabot, unless we want to pretend.
Inlines? There were inline flintlocks in the 18th and probably the 17th c. HOWEVER, they are NOT "typical of the era" and thus are not traditional hunting arms. They were made for Royalty or as Guild "Masterpiece" projects. Like rifles with square, pentagonal or heart shaped bores. ALL from early in the age of the flintlock perhaps even before.
If bulleted MLs were ACTUALLY USED, then people would not have been writing the Sharps Rifle Co. telling they they can now kill game at much greater range than with their MLs. If the MLs were using PP bullets they would have been ballistically similar or perhaps SUPERIOR to the Sharps. But they were not... So what WERE they using? The PRB of course.
I can find a host of things that are available but not used because they were impractical. Its like someone in 2200 re-enacting 2010 with a hydrogen powered vehicle, he read someplace they had them so its HC.
But I am sure he could justify it. Afterall if we had them we would use them right?
Then we have the velocity standard Deviation problem. You see at BP velocities the variation in velocity can result in wild changes in point of impact from shot to shot. At 300 yards the groups can string as far as 40" just from the velocity variations. SDs of 30 will produce ammo that is useless for hunting at 300 yards. So if the load is shot over a chronograph and it produces SDs greater than 10 its probably not accurate enough past 200 yards to reliably kill a deer. The bullets at the low end of the deviation will fall off the animal and maybe hit the leg. So loads need to be chronographed. If the velocity is under 1500-1600 then the SD has to be 10 or less.
Then I am told I am being HC/PC? REALLY? What is "traditional" if not HISTORICALLY CORRECT?
I could not care less what people shoot from their MLs. But don't tell me its "traditional" when it is not. I do have a source of wonderment at people who want to hunt with a ML that is not traditional. But then we (thank goodness) do not have a special ML season here and I hope we never do. It brings all the people out who's only interest is in the extended hunting season. Then they want a ML that performs like a 270. So they shoot various bullets and semi-smokeless powder to get a 200 yard ML. Then they need a scope etc etc etc.
But to them I guess its "traditional".

Dan

 

[Idaho Ron]

Wow it must sting pretty bad that guys like me get to use the same forum as you do.
In my opinion every guy that left for the west would have taken their Original hawkens and burned them after shooting mine. I wouldn't trade 50 of the originals for one of mine. I have no use for one. Ron

 

[nkbj]

I remember the History Channel had a special about Confederate snipers. This may be what you read. Long shots were possible and documented. https://www.thehistorychannelclub....leview/articleid/54/civil-war-snipers[/quote]

Just a side note about CSA snipers. Once upon a time I found an old book in beautiful condition with color plates in a charity resale shop for unwed mothers in Jasper, Alabama. It was the war remembrances of a Confederate general. When I thumbed open the book there was a wonderful picture of Confederate snipers in a huge tree. And they were decked out in uniforms as green as Errol Flynn in Sherwood Forest. Donated it to a museum in Beaumont, Texas.

 

[chickenmcnasty]

The "hot rod hawken" is definately a thing of beauty. It may not be what someone considers "traditional" but to me it doesn't matter what someone thinks. We have the same type of people in "traditional" archery circles. When someone shows up at a shoot with a compound they make the same cutting remarks about their modern gear and in general act like elitist jerks.
I don't think the mountain men much cared about it but simply wanted a good meat getter. I feed my family every year on venison and it saves us a ton of money but in the end I don't need to kill deer to survive. I would think most people on this forum are in the same boat. We do it mostly for the recreation.
If someone wants to wear buckskins and shoot an original hawken than good for them. But I would ask us all to be mindful of the goals of others as well. This is an awesome hobby and I feel blessed to be a part of it. But every time we fight amongst ourselves it makes a PETA member rejoice.

 

[Billnpatti]

AMEN!!! Personally, I wish the various states having a ML season would specify that the MLs used had to be traditional side lock rifles only. Actually, I wouldn't mind if they specified flintlocks only. Then muzzleloading season would be what it was originally intended to be.

That's my opinion. Put it in the FWIW column.