Long Land Pattern Brown Bess with Stowe 1776 lock

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

Hi all, a friend is looking to sell his Long Land Pattern Brown Bess. We are both not sure of the origins, I had heard of some SLP having "Stowe 1776" but not of a LLP. On the back of the lock it says Made In Italy. Any advice as to its origin would be appreciated. I'm newer to reenacting, my unit is a militia unit amd currently I use a fowler but a chance at a LLP would be foolish to pass up.
Thanks.

 

[TreeMan]

I’m pretty sure that’s an older Pedersoli Bess repro. I know at one time years ago they marked their locks Stowe (1970s era) instead of the current Grice marked locks. I’ve read that the Stowe locks were done by Dixie gun works back then or maybe it was navy arms but the gun and lock are Pedersoli.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

I’m pretty sure that’s an older Pedersoli Bess repro. I know at one time years ago they marked their locks Stowe (1970s era) instead of the current Grice marked locks. I’ve read that the Stowe locks were done by turner kirkland of Dixie gun works back then or maybe it was navy arms. Either way this is a Pedersoli gun.

TreeMan, thanks for the info. I wasn't aware Pedersoli ever made a LLP. Did they ever sell their locks seperately and someone else made the barrel?

 

[TreeMan]

TreeMan, thanks for the info. I wasn't aware Pedersoli ever made a LLP. Did they ever sell their locks seperately and someone else made the barrel?

I’m sure they did. Use the search button in the forum and look up Stowe Bess. There are a few old posts. I saw one of those Stow marked Besses for sale I think at track of the Wolf a while back.

 

[FlinterNick]

There were four 1756 long land reproductions made in the 1970’s. One by Dixie Guns Works marked Stowe and one marked Grice by Coach Harness Co & David Pedersoli and another by Rappanhock Forge Co in NY State (very limited numbers) marked Tower And Jordan.

I believe this is the Dixie Gun Works Long Land Brown Bess. With a pedersli lock marked Stowe. On these the muskets the front sling swivel was often incorrectly located which here seems might be correct or possible too close to the middle thimble. They were also stocked in either Beech or Birch, but not Walnut.

The Coach Harness Bess was a little different, with the Grice marked lock and very easily identifiable ‘Birmingham UK’ modern day proof markings. The stock was designed by Kit Ravenersheer, and Sandy Mcnab, brass parts were by Reeves Ghoring and EJ blackly and the barrel I believe was a coach harness product. These muskets were very nice and are a hot collectors item, I’ve only seen 2-3 sell on auction in the last 10 year.s They sell for upward near 1500$. The only authenticty issue I‘ve ever seen with these is the barrel tapper isn’t correct, with it being just a little too skinny in the breech area at 1.30 and the rings are too far apart.

Lastly Holland and Holland made a hybrid 1740/ 1756 long land Bess’s which were very nice but for the most part not historically accurate. The lock plate is marked Holland & Holland.

Currently nobody really produces a long land other than in kit form by TRS and Track of the Wolf. Indian made reproductions dominate this pattern in reinactor use.

I’ve seen a few ’home’ made Brown Bess Muskets with a 46” barrel and Grice Lock and copied and ’extended’ pedersoli stock. Personally I think these look very odd with the pedersoli stock is just way too small in the butt and forearm to be a long land.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

I’m sure they did. Use the search button in the forum and look up Stowe Bess. There are a few old posts. I saw one of those Stow marked Besses for sale I think at track of the Wolf a while back.

TreeMan,
Thanks, I was able to find some info.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

There were four 1756 long land reproductions made in the 1970’s. One by Dixie Guns Works marked Stowe and one marked Grice by Coach Harness Co & David Pedersoli and another by Rappanhock Forge Co in NY State (very limited numbers) marked Tower And Jordan.

I believe this is the Dixie Gun Works Long Land Brown Bess. With a pedersli lock marked Stowe. On these the muskets the front sling swivel was often incorrectly located which here seems might be correct or possible too close to the middle thimble. They were also stocked in either Beech or Birch, but not Walnut.

The Coach Harness Bess was a little different, with the Grice marked lock and very easily identifiable ‘Birmingham UK’ modern day proof markings. The stock was designed by Kit Ravenersheer, and Sandy Mcnab, brass parts were by Reeves Ghoring and EJ blackly and the barrel I believe was a coach harness product. These muskets were very nice and are a hot collectors item, I’ve only seen 2-3 sell on auction in the last 10 year.s They sell for upward near 1500$. The only authenticty issue I‘ve ever seen with these is the barrel tapper isn’t correct, with it being just a little too skinny in the breech area at 1.30 and the rings are too far apart.

Lastly Holland and Holland made a hybrid 1740/ 1756 long land Bess’s which were very nice but for the most part not historically accurate. The lock plate is marked Holland & Holland.

Currently nobody really produces a long land other than in kit form by TRS and Track of the Wolf. Indian made reproductions dominate this pattern in reinactor use.

I’ve seen a few ’home’ made Brown Bess Muskets with a 46” barrel and Grice Lock and copied and ’extended’ pedersoli stock. Personally I think these look very odd with the pedersoli stock is just way too small in the butt and forearm to be a long land.

Thanks, should be a Dixie Gun Works then. It does have proof marks that I believe should be from the Birmingham Proof House. But from the info I saw in the 70s apparently they were using a different mark.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes those are after market stamps that have been applied. You can buy the stamps from Track of The Wolf

IF you get the musket, you will save time by submerging the barrel in a piece of PVC pipe with one end sealed, that is filled with Evaporust. After 24 hours remove it, rinse it, and rub it down with 4-0 steel wool, then dry and oil. The lock too.

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks, should be a Dixie Gun Works then. It does have proof marks that I believe should be from the Birmingham Proof House. But from the info I saw in the 70s apparently they were using a different mark. View attachment 94132View attachment 94133

That actually looks like a cherry stock, not bad coloring too.

Hard to tell if the stains on the barrel are rust or just a patina from handling and shooting. What does the bore look like ?

 

[FlinterNick]

TreeMan, thanks for the info. I wasn't aware Pedersoli ever made a LLP. Did they ever sell their locks seperately and someone else made the barrel?

The barrels for the Dixie Long land were American made by a company in Harpers Ferry, during the bicentennial there were a lot of machine shops that pooped up and turned barrels and casted brass parts for Bess’s and Charlevilles for Dixie and Navy Arms. It was really a unique time for muzzleloaders.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi all, a friend is looking to sell his Long Land Pattern Brown Bess. We are both not sure of the origins, I had heard of some SLP having "Stowe 1776" but not of a LLP. On the back of the lock it says Made In Italy. Any advice as to its origin would be appreciated. I'm newer to reenacting, my unit is a militia unit amd currently I use a fowler but a chance at a LLP would be foolish to pass up.
Thanks.

Is the barrel 46"..., I neglected to ask before.

LD

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

The bore from what I recall looked well used but did not appear as a rust bucket. I could probably clean it up well with some 0000 steel wool. I will be arranging at some point a chance to look at it in person and purchase it. It is a 46 inch barrel, when I first saw it one of the other guys had his SLP bess and we compared the length. It should be an approximation of a 1756 bess. I would add on the correct markings as I know a gentleman that does that. However with the history of the lock and that it is a Pedersoli lock I would probably just bite the bullet and get another lock and have that defarbed. The barrel does have a fair amount of "patina" on it. My unit is militia so the lack of perfect shiny everything can slide a bit. But I would still clean it up to armory. Bright as best as possible and then Rennaissance Wax it.

 

[FlinterNick]

The bore from what I recall looked well used but did not appear as a rust bucket. I could probably clean it up well with some 0000 steel wool. I will be arranging at some point a chance to look at it in person and purchase it. It is a 46 inch barrel, when I first saw it one of the other guys had his SLP bess and we compared the length. It should be an approximation of a 1756 bess. I would add on the correct markings as I know a gentleman that does that. However with the history of the lock and that it is a Pedersoli lock I would probably just bite the bullet and get another lock and have that defarbed. The barrel does have a fair amount of "patina" on it. My unit is militia so the lack of perfect shiny everything can slide a bit. But I would still clean it up to armory. Bright as best as possible and then Rennaissance Wax it.

fyi the current pedersoli lock will not work for the dixie gun works long land. The current lock is smaller by 1/8 an inch and the internals are not the same.

The first generation of pedersoli locks were in my opinion more historically accurate in size shape and proportion to a 1755 lock. The engravings were also done by hand on these locks, not molded (mold stamped) on like the current production. They can be very easily polished/filed and remarked To a period correct name such as Jordan 1762 or for that matter Grice 1762, as Grice did make locks of the 1755 pattern.

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks, should be a Dixie Gun Works then. It does have proof marks that I believe should be from the Birmingham Proof House. But from the info I saw in the 70s apparently they were using a different mark. View attachment 94132View attachment 94133

I’m not sure what the modern day coach harness barrel proof markings looked like, its possible this is a coach harness made musket marked Stowe, if so I’ve never seen one.

I’ve seen a few Stowe long lands on auction that were in poor shape with DGW marked on the barrel made in USA.

The only Grice marked coach harness musket I saw had a few proof markings on them, one was marked Framingham.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

Thanks for your info, theres no other marking above the wood. Would have to take the barrel out and check. I guess then it is at a bit kf a dilemna, as the lock is incorrectly labled amd dated but it is a memorial. So would it be a bad thing to remove the markings and re-mark?

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks for your info, theres no other marking above the wood. Would have to take the barrel out and check. I guess then it is at a bit kf a dilemna, as the lock is incorrectly labled amd dated but it is a memorial. So would it be a bad thing to remove the markings and re-mark?

remarking the lock can be done, smittys engraving does top work for the rifle shoppe

https://www.smittys-engraving.us/

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

remarking the lock can be done, smittys engraving does top work for the rifle shoppe

https://www.smittys-engraving.us/

Thank you, I will keep that place in mind. I could see the merit of having something in memorial of that curator being used in a Rev. Reenactment. I'm going to upload every photo I have received of it. Apolegies for the spam posting in advance.

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]

 

[WetCanvasEnjoyer.]