Long Land Mod Bess India Gun

[ebiggs1]

The TC Hawken caught flack from one well known expert of the day because they weren't anywhere near a "real" Hawkin. He even claimed they would blow up. His hatred was painfully clear every time he spoke on the subject.

He was wrong but the jury is still out on the India guns. People like that individual hang in this forum still. That is why I keep watching and reading.
I hope they are all their owners expect them to be.

 

fine shooting pieces you have there.

 

[mikee51848]

Again back to long land models
India style....

India made ones use the wrong wood (teak), and too much of it.
When you run your rammer down the barrel, does the resistance get less as you approach the breech? Some friends of mine have India Bess's and that seems to be the case. Supposedly that's the way they were made back then.
You're right, there are no correctly made Bess's, except the one's Kit Ravensheer made.

 

[BigDeutscher]

I like the whole setup you got there.
Deutsch

 

[BigDeutscher]

Thanks lad
I still, see nothing wrong with them
I like the way they look and feel
The wood on mine is dark and has some nice figure
too it.
Deutsch

 

[shooyer_250]

BigDeut...

The photo in woods is beautiful,,,If you are happy, who else actually counts...

Enjoy and God Bless

Lee

PS. no offense intended to anyone

 

[BigDeutscher]

I am the guy who worries what everyone else thinks about me,and my kit.Thats just the way I am
Been doing Living history on national parks since I was 12, got lucky and fell in with the right people.Most of the fellas, Vets just back from South East Asia.
I ...as I have stated here Think these are a great gun for the money
Hand made ,well made ,a great value and joy for the man who can afford one, in this day in age.
There is 1,100 dollars worth of stuff in that picture in the woods.
Oh my god ...thats not 1/3rd of what I own.....Please dont tell my wife!
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[BigDeutscher]

There is no change in bore dia. from vent to muzzle.Very smooth

 

[Bobby Bivins]

Thanks alot. I particularly liked the shot bag in your photo.

 

[BigDeutscher]

shot bag is from Beaverman
It is the last bag i will ever buy
Stap by the weaving welshman

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[robertdale]

I am just being vocal. what kind of b.s. stock finish is that? olive oil?do your homework and put the right kind of finish on your new Import. :barf:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:shocked2:

Ouch, santabob. Isn't it best to look at the finish as a "work in progress"? I'm sure that our Big German friend will make arrangements as soon as he decides whether he wants to make some changes to the musket.

 

[BigDeutscher]

It was raining when I took the Picture
In the woods
But to answer you Question about the B/S finish on it
I would say there is none .I asked Charlie
To Stain it . And I would apply the Finish that I have been useing for more than 20 years
Just haven started yet.Got to gather some things to make a batch
Ancient German Secret Weapons Finish.
O.K.?
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[Bobby Bivins]

If it's not to big a secret, I like some advice in that area myself. My Indian beauty could use a better finish. I've heard that teak wood is hard to stain, someone recommended Fielbings leather dye. Any thoughts?

 

[BigDeutscher]

Shine
I want to reduce the wood between the barrel and Ram rod channel by 1/2 The wood is there
As so many of our readers have noted.
Do you think it is strong enough
to thin it, that far?
Under close exam the rest, foward of the lock all the way to the swell,seems to have a belly in it.
Just enough to lower the entry pipe in the stock
and stay in line with the upper pipes in their new seat
If it does not work I will re-stock it as a smooth rifle
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[BigDeutscher]

O.K. here it is
I frickin love this thing
I am a big Guy and its a big gun
We kinda go together
My first thought looking at the front. The wood between the Barrel and the Ram Rod cahnnel is a little to much.
But what do I know
Why would someone go to the lengths people go to to produce these weapons. And turn out something that is totally bogus.
First models that retain an original issue military wooden ram rod are Rare.
I have not found even 1 example on the internet.
That doesnt mean there is not one in private hands. I just cant find it.
Know one knows the weapons story ...conversions ,re-stocking,parts guns /whatever
Veteran Arms Owner Charles says he used original prints. That they spent a year working with the company in India to get the 1St model Bess
The way it supposed to be!
British Specs..... Historical Documents
Samples sent from India to Veterans in Georgia, corrections made and returned for production.

So the woods comin off. I dont know if this is right. And I hope, it does not turn out to be
one of those{ brown thread things}
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[shooyer_250]

Deut...

I was raised in the woods, I know where you're coming from. I just started the BP thing a couple of years ago,,,,and went nuts...I feel you about the money thing...I won't tell your wife...for the right amount of cash/tradegoods...LOL

God Bless

Lee

 

[Celt5494]

I think a lot of what many folks are missing is Military grade firearms always have been very sturdy guns. Even up to some of the last great firearms such as the M1 Garand or the more recent M-14 which were both kings of the battlefield. Often times many see the beautiful graceful lines of the Kentucky or Pennsylvania long rifle especially when produced in a .32 .36 caliber then see a .75 Bess or French preiod musket and get turned off. But then again there is that crowd that appreciates a fine period Military firearm and I happen to be one of that crowd! I feel your pain.........

 

[Zonie]

You might want to go to your library and ask them if they have a copy of 'BATTLE WEAPONS of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann, ISBN 1-880655-07-1.

It has many photos of many different guns that were used in the Rev. War and shows versions from the Long Land Pattern 1730, Long Land Pattern 1742, Long Land Pattern 1756 and Sea Service Muskets, Marine Musket, Short Land Patterns etc.

The author says, " The long Land Pattern 1730- Manufacture of the new "King's Pattern" commenced in 1728. It was issued beginning in 1730 and is considered the first of the long land Brown Besses, having a 46" barrel (.75 caliber) and wooden rammer, curved "banana" lock, brass furniture and a walnut stock."

"The Long Land Pattern 1742- This updated Brown Bess musket retained the 46-inch barel (.75 caliber) and wooden ramrod but had modified brass furniture and a second Bridle added to the banana lock."

"The Long Land Pattern 1756- This third Brown Bess version retained the 46-inch pinned barrel (.75 caliber) but introduced a straighter lock, steel rammer and a long, flared upper ramrod pipe. It is uncertain how much American service this musket had in the French and Indian War."

"The Short Land Pattern 1768- A new 42-inch barrel (.75 caliber) Brown Bess was approved in 1768 and issued beginning in 1769 as the new standard arm of the British army..."

If you can tell me which one of these your rifle represents I can give you some "eyeballed" dimensions of a few features.

You mentioned the thickness of the wood and I'm not sure you intended to suggest the thickness of the stock on both sides of the barrel but looking at several photos in the book I mentioned it looks like the wood just forward of the lock panels can't be much thicker than 1/16" right at the top where the wood stops. Below this area the stock looks to be slightly thicker but not much more than 1/8" at the most.

 

[JV Puleo]

Zonie's comments are spot on, as are those of VaManuf...

George's book, Battle Weapons of the Revolution, is just about out of print but a new edition is in the works. Also... for the best photography of the best extant examples of the Land Pattern Muskets get "The Brown Bess" by Erick Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray. (you can get it on Amazon or from the publisher, Mowbray Publishing) The Goldstein & Mowbray book is all high quality color photographs with most of the guns coming from the Colonial Williamsburg collection. The most comprehensive book available is DeWitt Bailey's "Small Arms of the British Forces in America, 1664-1815. There is also "Redcoat & Brown Bess" by the late Anthony Darling, though that is fairly dated now and has been superseded by DeWitt Bailey's book and the Goldstein & Mowbray book.

However, you may just find that the reproduction does not correspond exactly to any known pattern. This is partly because there are a huge number of buggered up, bad "restorations" out there being accepted as original. Don't let anyone tell you they were constantly rebuilding these and that all sorts of minor differences existed etc... The British Ordnance was very demanding in quality and, within the tolerances of 18th century technology, they demanded, and got, a very great deal of uniformity.

As to the gun itself... it is clunky and there is too much wood. To answer your question as to why... I very much doubt anyone involved had a good Long Land Pattern to compare it to... they probably relied on pictures and may have made the mistake of relying on someone else's bad restoration or even a reproduction. The ability to actually "see" the differences is more artistic than mechanical - some are so subtle that without a good example of the real thing at hand, or lots of years looking at original examples, they are nearly invisible to the average person. That stock is much too thick and the lock panels are much too big. Those criticisms are accurate but if you're happy with the gun thats all that should matter to you... With some careful work it could probably be altered to look much more like an original if thats important to you.

As to the wooden ramrod version, yes they are rare and the internet is absolutely worthless as a source of information on this subject. If you really want to know, buy the books. I owned one 25 years ago, a Pattern 1730 converted from wooden to iron ramrod (what DeWitt Bailey calls the 1730/42).