Loads in a original rem 1858

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rodwha

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No! I guess to make a gunsmith check it out i would have to ship it to one in USA. And i guess that would be pretty expensive. What exacly you mean the gunsmith should check?

It's a antiquarian and if i do any changes to it then it's dropping the price...and i can't buy any piettas etc any new produced replicas legally in sweden. Neither any cylinders from piettas etc.... In order to be legal it has to be produced before 1980. Our crazy shitty laws......

But about the shape it's in pretty good shape actually. I can see the one who had it before me have been taking care of it. I can see the rifling in the pipe very clearly, the cylinder probably haven't been used in a while since it got the original color left. So a guess is they converted to another one for a while then converted back to the original cylinder. Entire the gun works perfectly and i can't see any cracks, rust etc anywhere. And the mechanism works like a charm.

The thing i am confused about is the black powder charges since piettas are harder and can stand out better to the higher amounts powder then the original ones right? So i'm confused about the loads i should use and if it's for example enough for home defense or whatever with 30 grains and a round ball or if i can shoot a 215 grains conical bullet safely with 30 or 35 grains....since it's antiquarian i'm not sure how hard it is compared to piettas that can handle out more pressure etc...so i'm wondering how to maximize the load for it to be enough for self defense or home defense without exploding the gun.
To know if it’s in great shape and can handle powerful loads it would be best to have someone who knows guns to verify it. It does sound as though it’s in near pristine condition.

Original guns could handle all the powder you could cram under a ball or conical. The steel they were using up north was high quality. The mild steel they use today they claim is stronger than what was being produced in the 1860’s. I wouldn’t test a highly compressed substitute load in an original even in great condition.

What powders do you have available to you to choose from? That’s your most important aspect if you are wanting to use it for protection or hunting. You need a sporting grade powder. Through a repro 3F Swiss with a .454” ball looks like this:
28 grns 959 fps
35 grns 1089 fps
40 grns 1104 fps
Note that the extra 5 grns didn’t amount to much when moving up from 35 grns.

A ball will outperform almost any conical with the exception of those with a wide meplat, which are not traditional. A hollow point would outperform the wide meplat bullet. You want large and blunt.
 

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Great info rodwha, and you probably know that Swiss and Shutzen will have more pressure and power per charge than Goex. The reason is that the charcoal in Goex is from oak and the other two use elder and two other tree species I can't remember so be careful. So the power comes from the charcoal like in a BBQ only much faster thanks to the catalyst salt peter . So we are using passive solar energy to power our smokepoles!! Now ain't chemistry great.
 

rodwha

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Great info rodwha, and you probably know that Swiss and Shutzen will have more pressure and power per charge than Goex. The reason is that the charcoal in Goex is from oak and the other two use elder and two other tree species I can't remember so be careful. So the power comes from the charcoal like in a BBQ only much faster thanks to the catalyst salt peter . So we are using passive solar energy to power our smokepoles!! Now ain't chemistry great.
I’m not so sure Schuetzen creates more pressure than Goex. When I’ve seen comparable charges the velocities are quite similar. I also tend to think that Goex improved their powder over what was available decades ago. From what I’ve read I’ve gathered it is dirtier though.
 

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Re Triple7 and the compression thereof -

Here's Hodgdon's recommended cartridge loading procedure.

Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this brochure. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do NOT reduce loads by means of filler wads of inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNING below [/color]

aaaaaand, next post.........................................
 
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TFoley

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This is not news, but is, in fact, from a NRA Show back in 2007. However, the advice is still new, and I, for one, heed it most carefully.

Quote -
More info from the NRA Show.

Yesterday afternoon, I had a long conversation with the fellow at Hodgdon who does the load work up testing, for their recomended loading data.
First, they are not, I repeat NOT, working on Triple 7 loading data for either the 577/450 or the 577 Snider, and they not do intend to do so. They do not have pressure test barrels for either cartridge, and they feel there is not enough shooters of either, to justify the cost of building said pressure test barrels.

Second, be careful loading Triple 7 powder.

Best porformance is achived with Triple 7, when the bullet just touches the powder. I was told the idea was to compact the powder and leave no air space in the case, NOT to compress the powder.

If you do compress the powder, do not under any circumstances compress the powder charge more than 1/10 of a inch, and that less than 1/16 of an inch is even better.

Triple 7 does NOT like to be compressed!

I was told that compressing Triple 7 more than 1/10 of an inch, will result in raising the chamber pressure in excess of 12,000 psi upon firing.


Third, use no filler materials with Triple 7, that includes COW, grits or anything else! The use of a under the bullet card wad is ok, but nothing else, period.
Their testing has shown fillers can and will raise case pressures in excess of 10,000 psi.

Four, Triple 7 should be measured by volume, not by weight when being used in place of Black Powder.

If you are trying to duplicate black powder velocities, you need to reduce the Triple 7 volume by about 15 %, to result in the same muzzle velocity.

They have only worked up 45-70 (60 grains by volume of Triple 7 with any bullet) and 45-120 (95 grains by volume of Triple 7 with any bullet), data at this time. The load volumes relate to FFG Black powder measures. He felt that the 45-90 data they are now working on, would be safe to use with the 577/450, but that was only his opinion and was not bases on testing of any sorts.

The 60 grains in a 45-70 using a 485 grain bullet results in a 1100 to 1200 fps muzzle velocity.

The 95 grains in a 45-120 using a 500 grain bullet results in a 1200 to 1300 fps muzzle velocity.

Triple 7 is interesting stuff, but you have to be carefull in its use.
 

rodwha

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Re Triple7 and the compression thereof -

Here's Hodgdon's recommended cartridge loading procedure.

Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this brochure. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do NOT reduce loads by means of filler wads of inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNING below [/color]

aaaaaand, next post.........................................
That’s concerning the loading of cartridges. What it said about loading in muzzleloaders was to load the projectile firmly on the powder charge. The light compression was only expressed in the cartridge section.
 

William O.

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I have over a dozen c & b pistols and shot alot in SASS for over 20 years.
My suggestion: Don't use pyrodex because as you compress it more the pressure will increase much greater than with real bp. Use 2ff and load with heavier loads until you see caps start to get close to flat, that's max load. If you're into speed and got a crono work up with 3f. If you want more recoil shoot a conical and work up max load. Remember, if the caps are totally flat after shooting then the load is too hot. Also, fouling causing it to be hard to rotate cylinder may limit your max load. If you can shot 6 without this problem you can pull cylinder and wipe inside of frame with a solvent.(I like huggies baby wipes)
After competing in the SASS for around 10 years using both CF and '58 Remington revolvers, I got the best accuracy using 23 grains of 3f Goex under a fiber wad and round ball. The fiber wad took up space, preventing an air gap as well as sealing against chain fire. Now, our targets were no more than 15 yards away with some as few as 4 yards but the authority with which the balls struck the steel convinced me that these were quite deadly and that I did not want to be on the receiving end of even black powder handguns. I never tested any max loads or tried compressing powder but I did try using 3f Triple 7 in a cartridge for a pair of conversion cylinders I'd gotten. There is a reason that there is a warning with T-7 not to use 3f in pistol cartridges. I began to get split cases and flattened primers with much less than 30 grain equivalent charges. Not only is it more energetic than reqular BP but it burns hotter too. Brass work hardens and after just 2 reloads of new brass it began to split. Accuracy was good but not as with Goex. I never tried Pyrodex powder but did use their pellets, which was a disaster that I won't get into here. Power is great but if it's not accurate then to me at least, it's a waste of powder and lead. I'd rather put a RB right on what I aiming at instead of having to hope that collateral damage to the target does the trick.

My 2 cents, your mileage may vary.
 
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@Wildrangeringreen @springfield art @SDSmlf @SmokepoleSam
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Here is a better explanation of the shape etc in the message above.
Let me just say that I'm sorry to hear that about the Swedish, like many lands in Northern and Central Europe, you had such a great hunting and shooting sport culture for so long :(...

To check-over a revolver for serviceability:
If you have access to a caliper (it doesn't have to be a terribly expensive one, and they're useful for other things as well), that can be used to ensure that there are no bulges in the cylinder or the barrel, I would check that first (make sure the cylinder's round, and the barrel is consistent down it's length, that is, no abnormal bulges or divots on it that would indicate unserviceability). Most likely it's fine, but never hurts to check. Pay attention also to the chamber mouths, and ensure that there aren't any big nicks or dents there that would compromise it (and make the shot go wild from that chamber)

Then, remove the cylinder from the frame, remove the cones (nipples) and place a piece of white paper behind the cylinder and look in the chamber mouths, shine a bright flashlight on the paper. In this, we are trying to see if there is anything abnormal going on in the chambers that would indicate unserviceability. the insides should be smooth, or only have minor rust and very little pitting. Look at the cones, paying special attention to the vent, looking for excessive wear from gas cutting that would indicate replacement cones are warranted, they last a long time, but inevitably are consumables. (make sure your caps fit the cones tightly, so you don't risk a chain fire from one of them falling off during firing)

Next, do the same to the barrel; place a white paper in the frame and shine a bright light on it, then look down the muzzle and look at the bore, it should be shiny, or at most, lightly frosted with rust with only minor pitting, there should be no gouges or cracks in the rifling. Pay attention to the forcing cone at the back of the barrel, to ensure that the wear is even. Uneven wear would indicate the revolver is getting out of time (almost always fixable, but is unsafe until it is fixed, as you are literally hitting the gun with the bullet each time if there's uneven wear).

If all of that looks good, place the cones back in the cylinder, and the cylinder back in the frame and bring the revolver to full cock, does the cylinder rotate excessively? it shouldn't move hardly at all, and if it does, we will either have to fill in the cylinder-stop window on the frame a bit, or get/make an oversized one to fit it tightly (it's not a complicated part), this will prevent further peening of the window and the revolver from getting out of time in the future. Decock the gun, and without releasing the trigger, does the cylinder move excessively forward and back on the axis pin, it shouldn't move very much at all. If it does, we will need to shim it with very thin washers to help keep the gun in time and eliminate future damage from the cylinder slamming around upon firing.

Ensure that there isn't any excessively rough points during the cycling of the gun, which would indicate damage to the internals (from rust usually). It wouldn't hurt to take a moment and carefully disassemble the internals and clean them (take pictures as you go with your phone so you can see how everything goes together, place parts in cups or bowls to ensure they don't get lost), and possibly lightly polish them with a soft rag and very fine buffing compound (particularly if there is a smidge of rust on them (turtle wax makes a paste for aluminum car rims, and I use it quite a lot for stuff like that). having smooth parts inside will limit the stresses on the parts during the cycling of the action, and that will help keep the gun from getting out of time/breaking things in the future. If you do use buffing compound, ensure that the part is 100% free of it before reassembly, as it will continue to abrade the metal if it's left on, and the action is cycled (a bit of acetone/brake cleaner will do it). In any case, oil the internals to protect them and minimize friction. Make sure not to damage the screw heads, so try to use a properly fitting hollow-ground screwdriver bit every time.

It is incredibly rare that these guns cannot be made 100% shootable again, if they've gotten a bit excessively worn; it's a matter of time and money, and where originals are all that are available to you, it's worth the time and money, I'd say. As far as loading, I would shoot a round ball and roughly 25gr of fine powder (4F) for target shooting/general practice, to limit recoil for you, and to take it easy on the gun. But I would always start/end the range session with the conical bullet and a roughly 25gr charge of fine powder (4F), as that is what you will be using for personal defense. With 215gr bullets, and 25gr of fine powder, you would have something that is the equal to the later .45 Schofield (S&W were literally trying to make a faster loading version of the 1858 Remington and 1860 Colt when they came out with it, and the US Army liked it), and that was/is still a good loading for personal defense.

So long as you are confident that the firearm will work, and you are confident in your shooting from practicing, you need not be too concerned about it's capability. Living things do not do too well with holes in their chest, and god-forbid you do end up having to shoot someone, a 215gr .45 bullet at roughly 820 fps will cause a grievous, potentially mortal wound to your would-be assailant (let alone all six). These guns were made to do this kind of work, and they can be made to function in their intended capacity again, as needed.
 

TFoley

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That’s concerning the loading of cartridges. What it said about loading in muzzleloaders was to load the projectile firmly on the powder charge. The light compression was only expressed in the cartridge section.
Who decides what is 'firmly'? I posted that because the red light is lit up for all to see - Triple 7, no matter how you load it, does NOT like compression to anything like the degree we are happy to use for regular BP.
 

rodwha

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Who decides what is 'firmly'? I posted that because the red light is lit up for all to see - Triple 7, no matter how you load it, does NOT like compression to anything like the degree we are happy to use for regular BP.
Well, Hogdgon decides what firmly is. Firmly and with bare minimum compression like with cartridge loading are two different things.

I’ve burned pounds and pounds and pounds of 3F Triple 7 in both of my revolvers and I certainly seat my projectiles quite firmly. There sure hasn’t been anything erratic to point towards crazy pressure spikes or other irregularities. I’d certainly love to see the proof you have that Triple 7 is this chaotic. And were it this finicky I don’t think it would have stayed on the market this long. And if it was this finicky why doesn’t Hogdgon’s mention this?

Honestly I believe it’s the same thing Hong where people ran with T7 needing to be reduced by 15% for safety and that 4F is only for the pan of a flintlock. None of those are true…
 

TFoley

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Well, Hogdgon decides what firmly is. Firmly and with bare minimum compression like with cartridge loading are two different things.
I’ve burned pounds and pounds and pounds of 3F Triple 7 in both of my revolvers and I certainly seat my projectiles quite firmly. There sure hasn’t been anything erratic to point towards crazy pressure spikes or other irregularities. I’d certainly love to see the proof you have that Triple 7 is this chaotic. And were it this finicky I don’t think it would have stayed on the market this long.
I have to admit that I'm just reposting the words of the Hodgdon employee who developed it. With all your experience, you must do what you think fit. Meanwhile, I'll continue to not use it at all.
 

rodwha

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I have to admit that I'm just reposting the words of the Hodgdon employee who developed it. With all your experience, you must do what you think fit. Meanwhile, I'll continue to not use it at all.
My position comes from the info Hogdgon’s once posted. I’ve also been digging into sporting grade powders and projectiles for nearly a decade and have been using the powders that long myself. So mine stance not only rests on Hogdgon’s statements, but on a long time of personal experience, as well as the number of those who also use the powders themselves.

As I said, if this were such a big problem as you claim why doesn’t Hogdgon’s address it? Why would the powder be so popular? Logic just doesn’t accept those notions.
 

rodwha

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And again, what you posted concerning this employee was purely just for cartridge loading which is very much different.
 

rodwha

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I just checked a bottle of my T7 and nowhere does it explain anything about the safety issue you pointed out. Guess they’re just setting themselves up for a lawsuit since it’s that temperamental and dangerous. Guess they just aren’t very smart.
 

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44 Remington, 18588 inch50 grain 3F Pyrodex143 grain, .457 ball1207 ft/s462 ft-lbs24.65 ft-s

Seems like he managed to shoot his rem with 50 grains as well
Is that the max volume on a 1858 Remington ?
I didn't think they held that much. I've not checked reproduction 1858's for max as I'm always measuring chamber length versus bullet length and loading accordingly but really, I thought they held less than a Dragoon.
 

William O.

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Is that the max volume on a 1858 Remington ?
I didn't think they held that much. I've not checked reproduction 1858's for max as I'm always measuring chamber length versus bullet length and loading accordingly but really, I thought they held less than a Dragoon.
I thought it was 30 grains.
 
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WIlliam O. & nkbj-

I read the link a little more carefully, and this is what I've gleaned from the wording as to the loading method the guy was using, post #15. It's a bit excessive, if you ask me lol 😲

SDSmlf's post (#18) he measured how much powder the chamber can hold up to the mouth, which was 50gr. of 3F, presumably, you could smash a ball on that and it might work, or you'd have to go to a finer powder, like what some of the better cartridge makers were using originally.

The OP was talking about loadings to use in his original, and he's more or less settled back on typical charges of BP with balls and bullets, due to it being original and not wanting to ruin it with +p loadings, since it's all he can get in his country 😢. but from his description of that revolver, he has an almost pristine condition Remington, which would be a prized possession in my opinion 🤠 !

:thumb:
 
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Crypt0manic

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Let me just say that I'm sorry to hear that about the Swedish, like many lands in Northern and Central Europe, you had such a great hunting and shooting sport culture for so long :(...

To check-over a revolver for serviceability:
If you have access to a caliper (it doesn't have to be a terribly expensive one, and they're useful for other things as well), that can be used to ensure that there are no bulges in the cylinder or the barrel, I would check that first (make sure the cylinder's round, and the barrel is consistent down it's length, that is, no abnormal bulges or divots on it that would indicate unserviceability). Most likely it's fine, but never hurts to check. Pay attention also to the chamber mouths, and ensure that there aren't any big nicks or dents there that would compromise it (and make the shot go wild from that chamber)

Then, remove the cylinder from the frame, remove the cones (nipples) and place a piece of white paper behind the cylinder and look in the chamber mouths, shine a bright flashlight on the paper. In this, we are trying to see if there is anything abnormal going on in the chambers that would indicate unserviceability. the insides should be smooth, or only have minor rust and very little pitting. Look at the cones, paying special attention to the vent, looking for excessive wear from gas cutting that would indicate replacement cones are warranted, they last a long time, but inevitably are consumables. (make sure your caps fit the cones tightly, so you don't risk a chain fire from one of them falling off during firing)

Next, do the same to the barrel; place a white paper in the frame and shine a bright light on it, then look down the muzzle and look at the bore, it should be shiny, or at most, lightly frosted with rust with only minor pitting, there should be no gouges or cracks in the rifling. Pay attention to the forcing cone at the back of the barrel, to ensure that the wear is even. Uneven wear would indicate the revolver is getting out of time (almost always fixable, but is unsafe until it is fixed, as you are literally hitting the gun with the bullet each time if there's uneven wear).

If all of that looks good, place the cones back in the cylinder, and the cylinder back in the frame and bring the revolver to full cock, does the cylinder rotate excessively? it shouldn't move hardly at all, and if it does, we will either have to fill in the cylinder-stop window on the frame a bit, or get/make an oversized one to fit it tightly (it's not a complicated part), this will prevent further peening of the window and the revolver from getting out of time in the future. Decock the gun, and without releasing the trigger, does the cylinder move excessively forward and back on the axis pin, it shouldn't move very much at all. If it does, we will need to shim it with very thin washers to help keep the gun in time and eliminate future damage from the cylinder slamming around upon firing.

Ensure that there isn't any excessively rough points during the cycling of the gun, which would indicate damage to the internals (from rust usually). It wouldn't hurt to take a moment and carefully disassemble the internals and clean them (take pictures as you go with your phone so you can see how everything goes together, place parts in cups or bowls to ensure they don't get lost), and possibly lightly polish them with a soft rag and very fine buffing compound (particularly if there is a smidge of rust on them (turtle wax makes a paste for aluminum car rims, and I use it quite a lot for stuff like that). having smooth parts inside will limit the stresses on the parts during the cycling of the action, and that will help keep the gun from getting out of time/breaking things in the future. If you do use buffing compound, ensure that the part is 100% free of it before reassembly, as it will continue to abrade the metal if it's left on, and the action is cycled (a bit of acetone/brake cleaner will do it). In any case, oil the internals to protect them and minimize friction. Make sure not to damage the screw heads, so try to use a properly fitting hollow-ground screwdriver bit every time.

It is incredibly rare that these guns cannot be made 100% shootable again, if they've gotten a bit excessively worn; it's a matter of time and money, and where originals are all that are available to you, it's worth the time and money, I'd say. As far as loading, I would shoot a round ball and roughly 25gr of fine powder (4F) for target shooting/general practice, to limit recoil for you, and to take it easy on the gun. But I would always start/end the range session with the conical bullet and a roughly 25gr charge of fine powder (4F), as that is what you will be using for personal defense. With 215gr bullets, and 25gr of fine powder, you would have something that is the equal to the later .45 Schofield (S&W were literally trying to make a faster loading version of the 1858 Remington and 1860 Colt when they came out with it, and the US Army liked it), and that was/is still a good loading for personal defense.

So long as you are confident that the firearm will work, and you are confident in your shooting from practicing, you need not be too concerned about it's capability. Living things do not do too well with holes in their chest, and god-forbid you do end up having to shoot someone, a 215gr .45 bullet at roughly 820 fps will cause a grievous, potentially mortal wound to your would-be assailant (let alone all six). These guns were made to do this kind of work, and they can be made to function in their intended capacity again, as needed.

Thanks man! I will check all that up! Yeah even the hunters etc in sweden who actually got a license can't use the guns for self defense otherwise they go to jail for murder. Even if they are getting killed by robbers...

The licenses are very hard to get and even if you drive your car 10 km/h too fast they will take your guns...out and get into a fight? They take your guns even if you're not the one who started....etc...it's q crazy country. i know many hunters and they are all in fear 24/7 to loose their guns for crap you wouldn't even think about.

I will go through entire the gun later when i get home. I will get out and do some shooting again soon. Later i will do your instructions qnd check it all up 😀

I actually got 215 grains conical bullets today so i will try them out. And some round ball ofc! And only for the sake of curiousity i will try some pyrodex as well since i got a jar of pyrodex RS i know it should be pyrodex P but i ordered it for a long time ago when i didn't know all this! Still people say i can shoot with it so i will try lighter charges up to max 25 grains i guess and maybe 20 with conical i'm not sure yet...i will also try black powder. Not sure about the corn size on the BP i got but i guess i will try out 25 grains with the conical one and 30 for round balls!

Haven't been on here for a couple of days seems like i got alot of good advices here!

I was wondering on the charge for 215 grains conical bullets but you already answered my question before me even asking 😀

What you guys think is a okay load for pyrodex RS with a conical and rb? I want ofc to get out the max power out of it! It's kinda tricky for me since i don't know the difference between pyrodex RS and P so i guess i will try to load lower loads and try to work them up slowly for safetys sake!

Thanks for help everyone!!! 😀
 

Crypt0manic

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Is that the max volume on a 1858 Remington ?
I didn't think they held that much. I've not checked reproduction 1858's for max as I'm always measuring chamber length versus bullet length and loading accordingly but really, I thought they held less than a Dragoon.

It's loaded atm except the caps since i'm gonna do some shooting but i can measure it when i get back home! Mine is a original not sure if the originals and reproduction is same size but they should be. A dude in here i think on page 1 measured his chambers as well on 1858 rem you can check that up!
 

Crypt0manic

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I thought it was 30 grains.
Not sure how good that is for the gun probably i should stay at 30 grains since it's original and not a reproduction that got harder steel but i'm sure with a RB i could get in at least 40 grains if not more.
 

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