Loads in a original rem 1858

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Crypt0manic

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Modern steel? Although the steel Remington and Colt were using by the late 50's and into the 60's isn't all that different from what repro's use today (their heat treatments were generally better, because the stuff they were producing then weren't treated as novelties lol). "just fill up the chamber and smash a ball on top" is a pretty common way of doing it, and especially with a ball, should be safe, as those pistols are proofed (CIP proofing loads for BP cartridges and percussion revolvers are similar, and basically boil down to: "pack as much powder in as you can, with the heaviest projectile that's going to be used, and light that puppy off... if it doesn't bulge or blow, you're good." of course, that implies the maker of the gun proofed in accordance with CIP standards lol (insert Traditions Spanish proof-marks that attest to mouse-fart loads lol). With BP, I wouldn't worry about it too much, considering no more than you can fit in the chambers. Pyrodex, being enhanced BP, has a slightly longer moment of force, but is still somewhat similar to BP (enough that with the limited amounts used, probably no biggie). 777, on the otherhand, has a significantly longer moment of force than BP, plus it is significantly denser than BP, so be verrry careful with that stuff, and work your way up. I would say, without testing, if you can get 4F granulation powder, you can probably replicate the Hazard powder loads, and if you use the P (which I think is the finest granulation of pyro) grade Pyro, you will probably get close to the same velocities, due to the addition of Potassium Perchlorate to the BP. You are just going to have to test it, just be careful.

Some one who knows for sure- Is pyrodex notably denser than BP? I think it is, but I don't mess with it all that much, so IDK for sure? if it is, that may also explain why his charges weigh so much?
Hey man! No i'm talking about a gun produced back in time i guess 1858 since it's the remington 1858 model i got. And in sweden it's illegal to own one that can take metal cartridges like the modern ones or one that is produced after 1890 so it's a old gun in a very good shape tho so wouldn't worry about the condition of the gun. I actually got pyrodex RS and later found out it's doing more damage to the gun then real black powder and the RS is for riffles....i didn't know while buying. So never used anything except black powder!
 
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Hey man! No i'm talking about a gun produced back in time i guess 1858 since it's the remington 1858 model i got. And in sweden it's illegal to own one that can take metal cartridges like the modern ones or one that is produced after 1890 so it's a old gun in a very good shape tho so wouldn't worry about the condition of the gun. I actually got pyrodex RS and later found out it's doing more damage to the gun then real black powder and the RS is for riffles....i didn't know while buying. So never used anything except black powder!
yah, chlorate enhanced powders can be hard on things. lol oh, if its original, I definitely wouldn't be trying what that guy in the link was playing with lol
 

Crypt0manic

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You cannot overload when using BP. I don’t know if compressing the powder and recharging before loading the projectile can be dangerous in a fit repro. It’s clearly been done by many people and there hasn’t been an issue anyone’s pointed out, nor has a new warning label been made after a couple of decades. However there’s more to the tale then powder. I created a short but very heavy bullet for my Ruger. Knowing it was taking up precious powder powder room I designed it with very long thick driving bands to create additional friction and therefor pressure. A guy loaded up two charges of 26 grns of Pyrodex P with my 285 grn bullet in his Walker and blew the chamber apart. Because Pyrodex compresses so much I guess it his was sort of an overcharge that was able to be squeezed under that bullet.
Thanks man i will stick to black powder!
 

Crypt0manic

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yah, chlorate enhanced powders can be hard on things. lol oh, if its original, I definitely wouldn't be trying what that guy in the link was playing with lol
Oooh got ya! Thanks! Just curious i'm not gonna use pyrodex probably i stick to black powder! I just got surprised when i saw his ballistics!
 

Crypt0manic

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Only thing I am sure about is that I would NOT TRUST any load data from whoever published that chart. Own original and reproduction 1858s. Quite some time ago, out of curiosity, compared the chamber capacity of an original to a reproduction and found them to be very close, about 50 grains (by weight) of 3F each, when loaded to the mouth of cylinder chamber with powder. Now if one were really dedicated and put the effort into it, imagine they could compress the load to the point of getting a ball below the face of cylinder, and the gun would go into battery and could be shot with that load. Not going to try that with an original, as they don’t make them anymore.

First two photographs are of the original’s cylinder weigh in, the next two are of the reproduction’s.
View attachment 89613View attachment 89614View attachment 89615View attachment 89616

Will wait for your test results. Good luck.
Thanks man! Mine is a original one. We can't own new produced ones in sweden legally. I guess the max load i would shoot with it is around 35-40 grains i never did more then 30! But i'm pretty worried for 40 grains and not sure if it can stand out 50 grains of real black powder. But kinda worried to try....i will try 35 next time i guess!
 

Crypt0manic

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Paper cartridges during the Civil War were all over the place. I’m not familiar with the various powder makers back then or which the military used and when, but I have read a great piece where a fellow tested actual Hazard’s paper cartridges in .44 cal. They were found to contain 4F powder and during testing proved to be equivalent to modern Swiss powder. The writings talked about the need due to the small chamber capacities with conicals. Very interesting. Hazard’s .44 cal cartridges used 36 grns of 4F pushing a 211 grn bullet:

cleaning fish tank filter sponge

It looks like Hazard’s maximized their cartridges to fully fill the chambers as best they could. I would venture to guess the others were also using ~4F powders too with such small charges pushing heavy bulges.
Thanks that's interesting to see! Gonna get out and experiment some with my rem some day! Ordered new bullets i wanted to try since people had them back in time before round balls! they're 215 grains 454 bullets. Guess 25 grains of real bp should be fine! Thinking of these bullets 😀
 

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rodwha

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You cannot overload when using BP. I don’t know if compressing the powder and recharging before loading the projectile can be dangerous in a fit repro. It’s clearly been done by many people and there hasn’t been an issue anyone’s pointed out, nor has a new warning label been made after a couple of decades. However there’s more to the tale then powder. I created a short but very heavy bullet for my Ruger. Knowing it was taking up precious powder powder room I designed it with very long thick driving bands to create additional friction and therefor pressure. A guy loaded up two charges of 26 grns of Pyrodex P with my 285 grn bullet in his Walker and blew the chamber apart. Because Pyrodex compresses so much I guess it his was sort of an overcharge.
 

rodwha

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Since you are working with an original I’d probably steer clear of using Swiss 4F or whatever the French equivalent is, especially with a bullet. The driving bands on that bullet are slender so they won’t add too much to the friction so that’s a good thing.
 

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Although I would like to think the cylinder metallurgy of the original 1858s was an improvement over what was found in the 1847 Walkers, find it difficult in my opinion to realistically expect much improvement over such a relatively short of time. Is there any documentation out there? Believe somewhere approaching 30% of the Walkers were said to have damaged cylinders after use. Original loading was 60 grains of black powder, but after multiple cylinder failures Colt changed the load recommendation to 50 grains. I would not be risking an original cylinder in an original 1858 with charges over 30 grains. Who knows how much stress a cylinder with possible suspect metallurgy by today’s standards was exposed to over the last 150 years or so. A lot of down side and little to gain in my opinion.
 

Crypt0manic

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Since you are working with an original I’d probably steer clear of using Swiss 4F or whatever the French equivalent is, especially with a bullet. The driving bands on that bullet are slender so they won’t add too much to the friction so that’s a good thing.
Okay got ya man! Thanks!
 

Crypt0manic

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Although I would like to think the cylinder metallurgy of the original 1858s was an improvement over what was found in the 1847 Walkers, find it difficult in my opinion to realistically expect much improvement over such a relatively short of time. Is there any documentation out there? Believe somewhere approaching 30% of the Walkers were said to have damaged cylinders after use. Original loading was 60 grains of black powder, but after multiple cylinder failures Colt changed the load recommendation to 50 grains. I would not be risking an original cylinder in an original 1858 with charges over 30 grains. Who knows how much stress a cylinder with possible suspect metallurgy by today’s standards was exposed to over the last 150 years or so. A lot of down side and little to gain in my opinion.
Thank you! Yeah i guess i better stay with around 30 grains! It's old and very expensive over here so i better be on safe side
 

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I'm not a Rem historian, but a friend has a Rem 58 that is known Confederate. Seems an arsenal down South had a store of Rems when the War started. All the Northern ones had some sort of conversion done on them, and any that are un-altered are considered Southern for certain in the collecting field. He got it years ago from a known family that was related to the Van Lieu spy. I have a pal who may sell his as-new Rem repro, an older Navy Arms pistol. I had a couple of the .36's back in the day, because I liked the smaller size. They are a solid handful!
 

Steel Guitar

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I have over a dozen c & b pistols and shot alot in SASS for over 20 years.
My suggestion: Don't use pyrodex because as you compress it more the pressure will increase much greater than with real bp. Use 2ff and load with heavier loads until you see caps start to get close to flat, that's max load. If you're into speed and got a crono work up with 3f. If you want more recoil shoot a conical and work up max load. Remember, if the caps are totally flat after shooting then the load is too hot. Also, fouling causing it to be hard to rotate cylinder may limit your max load. If you can shot 6 without this problem you can pull cylinder and wipe inside of frame with a solvent.(I like huggies baby wipes)
 

rodwha

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Oil such as Ballistol on the cylinder pin will keep it running. I use Olde Eynsford BP, which is cleaner like Swiss so I don’t know how well it works with dirtier powders.
 

rodwha

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Has this gun been looked over by a gunsmith? Are you certain it’s in excellent shape?
 

Crypt0manic

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Has this gun been looked over by a gunsmith? Are you certain it’s in excellent shape?
No! I guess to make a gunsmith check it out i would have to ship it to one in USA. And i guess that would be pretty expensive. What exacly you mean the gunsmith should check?

It's a antiquarian and if i do any changes to it then it's dropping the price...and i can't buy any piettas etc any new produced replicas legally in sweden. Neither any cylinders from piettas etc.... In order to be legal it has to be produced before 1980. Our crazy shitty laws......

But about the shape it's in pretty good shape actually. I can see the one who had it before me have been taking care of it. I can see the rifling in the pipe very clearly, the cylinder probably haven't been used in a while since it got the original color left. So a guess is they converted to another one for a while then converted back to the original cylinder. Entire the gun works perfectly and i can't see any cracks, rust etc anywhere. And the mechanism works like a charm.

The thing i am confused about is the black powder charges since piettas are harder and can stand out better to the higher amounts powder then the original ones right? So i'm confused about the loads i should use and if it's for example enough for home defense or whatever with 30 grains and a round ball or if i can shoot a 215 grains conical bullet safely with 30 or 35 grains....since it's antiquarian i'm not sure how hard it is compared to piettas that can handle out more pressure etc...so i'm wondering how to maximize the load for it to be enough for self defense or home defense without exploding the gun.
 
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