Lead or Leather

[GregLaRoche]

I recently read an article that said the best way to hold a flint in the cock, was with lead around it instead of leather. I’ve always used leather, but his argument made sense. A flint held in leather is always cushioned when it strikes the frizen. Lead holds the flint more solidly, improving how it strikes.
How many members use lead? Does it really make a difference. Is there any historical reference to using one over the other?
Thanks

 

[Musketeer]

Here are a couple past threads to peruse:

Flint leather or lead
Mounting a Flint

As you can see there are a variety of opinions on the matter. Also note that at least certain manufacturers don't warrant the use of lead in their locks (as noted in one of the above threads). I'm a leather guy myself. Leather works great for me, and I've had troubles using lead in this application (though I admit it could be something in the way I'm prepping or mounting the lead, rather than an issue with lead itself).

 

[GregLaRoche]

The article I read said you needed to fire the gun a couple of times, tightening in between and then it would stay tight. I suppose because of the lead scare, some people don’t want to have anything to do with it, especially new gun manufacturers.

 

[Musketeer]

The lead I tried in a couple locks never seemed to settle and eventually become secure, but I may try it again and see if I have a lightbulb moment where I suddenly figure out how to do it successfully. You never know. If you're referring to makers who don't warrant lead as flint padding, this is done because the greater weight of lead can cause increased wear on the lock. A lead flint pad doesn't seem too heavy to me, but then I'm not a lock designer or builder, so I'll defer to those who are. I do know, just from tinkering with various mechanical objects for many years, that a seemingly tiny change in tolerances between two interacting surfaces can lead to shockingly different performance, so I tend to believe the lock makers.

 

[GregLaRoche]

I think the thickness of the sheet lead you are using is important. Hopefully if there is someone successfully using lead, the will let us know the thickness.

 

[Art Caputo]

I have used both leather and lead with my larger sized locks(Kibler Colonisl, Queen Anne-L&R, etc). From a sparking performance standpoint, as well as the effect on lock reliability I can’t say that I have been able to see much, if any difference. When initially mounting a flint in lead, I have just about always had to re-tightened the jaws using lead after a few firings, sometimes twice. I have rarely, if ever had to re-tighten a flint mounted in leather. As far as weight differences between using lead vs leather, there is a difference in weight, but I’m not sure that the difference would be much of a factor on at least the larger sized locks. Lead, cut to the same size as leather has an increased weight that averages approximately 60-70 gr. The leather holder weighs about 10gr, the lead 70-80gr. My typical thickness of lead that seems to work best is .025”-.030”. I make my lead holders by hammering a 50 cal lead ball on a flat surface. The one advantage of lead I have found is that it is much easier to clean the fouling from lock/jaws, and the lead will surely outlast the leather. As to lock damage due to the additional weight of the lead, I have not noticed any, at least with the larger locks. I will say that there is a much greater possibility to do damage to the jaws, tension screw slots on the hammer, or stressing the tumbler shaft when attempting to tighten down on the lead held flint. I would suspect the latter to be the greatest possibility of damage if overdone. Having said all this, I would say that given the choice one or the other, I’d choose leather, simply because it’s easier to work with. Just some thoughts.
Shown: leather vs lead...... Note: the weight difference between the thinner(90gr) vs thicker(120gr) size 7 English flint is about 30gr.

 

[Brokennock]

Lead is for ball, bullets, and shot, why waste in on the cock?
Seriously, with all the warnings about lead, the hassle of retightening until it is, hopefully, going to maintain its tightness, and the ease of obtaining scrap leather that will work, why bother with lead. Unless of course you have to for pc/hc reasons with certain muskets, but that is a different discussion.

 

[FishDFly]

Seems this comes up weekly. Brokennock is right.

 

[Peter Stines]

I've never seen an original flinter that still had a flint clamped in the lock that was wrapped in sheet lead. Its always been leather. Now flints and such get replaced umpteen times during long years of use but even the military flinters I've examined had LEATHER
pads. The military often used lead but the lock is so much bigger and can really clamp down on a flint. I've used both and prefer LEATHER. I've got plenty of scrap. Lead can add excess weight to the top secrion of the cock and potentially snap it off at the neck.
And claims that leather can catch and hold a spark is not a problem. I rub mine with a bit of bee's wax and tallow patch lube. Keeps the leather from drying out and cracking.

 

[Peter Stines]

I have used both leather and lead with my larger sized locks(Kibler Colonisl, Queen Anne-L&R, etc). From a sparking performance standpoint, as well as the effect on lock reliability I can’t say that I have been able to see much, if any difference. When initially mounting a flint in lead, I have just about always had to re-tightened the jaws using lead after a few firings, sometimes twice. I have rarely, if ever had to re-tighten a flint mounted in leather. As far as weight differences between using lead vs leather, there is a difference in weight, but I’m not sure that the difference would be much of a factor on at least the larger sized locks. Lead, cut to the same size as leather has an increased weight that averages approximately 60-70 gr. The leather holder weighs about 10gr, the lead 70-80gr. My typical thickness of lead that seems to work best is .025”-.030”. I make my lead holders by hammering a 50 cal lead ball on a flat surface. The one advantage of lead I have found is that it is much easier to clean the fouling from lock/jaws, and the lead will surely outlast the leather. As to lock damage due to the additional weight of the lead, I have not noticed any, at least with the larger locks. I will say that there is a much greater possibility to do damage to the jaws, tension screw slots on the hammer, or stressing the tumbler shaft when attempting to tighten down on the lead held flint. I would suspect the latter to be the greatest possibility of damage if overdone. Having said all this, I would say that given the choice one or the other, I’d choose leather, simply because it’s easier to work with. Just some thoughts.
Shown: leather vs lead...... Note: the weight difference between the thinner(90gr) vs thicker(120gr) size 7 English flint is about 30gr.
View attachment 58344View attachment 58345

I like the Queen Anne lock. I have it on my fowler and it works like a champ.

 

[Peter Stines]

I forgot to add this. (Another senior moment ?) The British experimented with sheet COPPER as a flint pad for their Brown Besses. Sounds goofy to me! But as the song goes..."Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun....."

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I recently read an article that said the best way to hold a flint in the cock, was with lead around it instead of leather. I’ve always used leather, but his argument made sense. A flint held in leather is always cushioned when it strikes the frizen. Lead holds the flint more solidly, improving how it strikes.
How many members use lead? Does it really make a difference. Is there any historical reference to using one over the other?
Thanks

Not me! In my experience with lead, the flint kept coming loose.

 

[Art Caputo]

Over five decades of shooting, I’ve given just about everything a try........IMO, the better use for lead with the lock is when a thin shim is needed to better position a particular flint that doesn’t sit right at the right height in relationship to the frizzen. These are cut much smaller to fit the forward portion of the lower jaw in front of the jaw screw, and are still used along with leather holding the flint. This poses none of the tightening, or weight issues associated with using lead to hold the flint. I will generally keep a lead. shim or two in my flint pouch along with spare, pre-cut leather to fit the jaws of a particular lock.this is not my particular idea. I have run into shooters(and makers) over the years that do this.

 

[MSW]

oh, duck and cover ... here it comes.. .probably enough controversy here to start a good bar fight.

it is said that Jim Chambers will not honor the warranty on his lock if you use lead wraps. (not sure how he can tell, but he's smarter than i in such matters, i'm sure).

i would try both and see which works best in your system... right now, i'm running lead in my T/C lock, but leather in my Siler locks.

Good luck, and make good smoke

 

[Ames]

Leather. Buckskin actually.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The other argument for lead is that it adds mass to the head of the cock, and would add more momentum to the force as it strikes the frizzen.

 

[Coot]

The other argument for lead is that it adds mass to the head of the cock, and would add more momentum to the force as it strikes the frizzen.

Of course the flip side of adding mass to the head of the cock is that the added mass will slow lock time.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I know I said this in another thread about this subject -
My NEW IN THE BOX Pedersoli Frontier came with a lead liner in the cock, and a spare in the box.
That's a pretty major manufacturer.
I have tried both, and have been successful with both.
I can't tell any difference in the functioning of the locks.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Heavy Sigh.....

Folks are mixing two different practices. We have written back and forth about this in the past, but it's not a bad topic to reiterate.

LEAD is used for musket locks.
In spite of the rather long distance that the musket flint travels when the lock is triggered, it is likely not moving nearly as fast as a smaller fowler lock, and definitely not moving as fast as a proper rifle lock (even factory produced guns). Musket flints tend to be the largest, tend to then to be the most likely to have odd bearing surfaces contacting the jaws of the cock, tend to impact at rather slow speed against the face of the frizzen, and as they were combat weapons, would likely need the most consecutive shots before one would have the time to stop and knap or even to swap out the flints. Lead helps to give the musket flint inertia....

LEATHER is used for smaller fowler locks and especially for rifle locks.
In fact as previously mentioned, the lock makers sometimes stipulate that if you don't use leather you void the warranty.
The smaller locks tend to be more precise, and better made, and give more sparks with less effort than musket locks, and the speed of the lock while being good for making sparks seems to be more for reducing to the shortest amount of time the interval between the trigger releasing the cock, and the sparks actually igniting the pan.

BOTH lead and leather should be made in such a fashion as to allow the back end of the flint to contact the jaw screw. Any cushioning done by leather on the rifle lock does so to cushion any impact force which pushes the flint perpendicular to the direction of impact. You still want a good impact so you don't want leather between the back of the flint and the jaw screw to reduce the force of the impact.

CAN you use leather in your musket lock? Sure, it's your lock. It will work quite well, and you're not risking the wrath of the Serjeant Major by being slow on the volley, since we're not doing volley fire, eh?

LD

 

[Howard Pippin]

After reading about the use of lead some years ago, I melted some soft lead in my little frying pan and scattered it across my welding table, it made a sheet of soft lead about 1/8 sick or less. using scissors, I cut it into usable pieces and tried it holding a flint. It actually seemed to work as good as leather, I didn't weigh the pieces they were pretty small and light, so it didn't add much weight, but I am curious now and I will weight some and see what it added for weight. In order to make a round top flint work in my lineman deer stalker the best, I made a small piece of flat iron about 3/16 thick into a little pad underneath of the flint so I could put it in with a flat side down. That might have added weight too, but I didn't notice must change in the action of the flint. I also took the spring from out of the frizzen and discovered that I got the same amount of sparks As before, the bad thing was you couldn't hunt that way and keep powder in the pan. Experimenting, a rubber band held it tight enough for hunting, but probably not period. The spring seemed awful strong on the frizzen so I thinned it down a ways, just so it was adequate the hold the frizzen closed. It actually seemed to make the flints last a little longer with the spring being weaker.
Anybody else experiment shooting without a spring holding the frizzen closed? The president of our shooting club shoots a nice flintlock that doesn't have the spring, and he said never did.
Squint