Lasanga?

[tenngun]

Just watched ‘Tasting History’ on you tube.
A guy that finds old recipes even dating back to Greek and Roman times. Does a lot of medevle recipes and a lot from an Form of Curry’ a fourteenth century English cook book.
One of the recipes he covered was lasanga. Pre American discovery, so no tomatoes. It was just noodle and cheese.
What’s my point?
As far as this forum is concerned, it just got me thinking how much pasta may have been seen in America.
We leave it out of much of our historic interpretation. And admittedly the past in this recipe was more noodle like then pasta like

 

[Carbon 6]

Considering the noodle is such a simple thing to make, I suspect it was more prevalent than we think. However, the "noodle" has many forms like the dumpling for example. Were mountain men making pasta ? I don't think that's a reality.

I've made homemade lasagna noodles, they are very easy to make and turn out almost indistinguishable from store bought noodles once cooked.

To make something like lasagna back in the day would have required a kitchen with an oven and access to the ingredients.

Chicken soup with homemade noodles or dumplings goes back a long way. Soups and stews were an easy and efficient way of feeding a group of people, and the noodle is easier to make from flour than bread is.

A starving man and an ignorant man will eat anything, but food is so much more than that. It is culture, history, geography, science and art.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Wheat may have been an issue depending on the time frame. I don’t know when wheat became a common grain here.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Wheat may have been an issue depending on the time frame. I don’t know when wheat became a common grain here.

Well durum wheat which is what pasta is and was normally made from, from 1790 onwards, has more than 2x the protein than does the soft, white wheat of the colonial period, but nonetheless they had "pasta" but the texture was different than what we have today, unless you make a copy of theirs....

An excerpt from A Vermicella Pudding, with Marrow.

"FIRST make your Vermicella [vermicelli noodles], take the Yolks of two Eggs, and mix it up with just as much Flour as will make it to a stiff Paste ; roll out as thin as a Wafer, let it lye to dry till you can roll it up close without breaking, then with a sharp Knife cut it very thin, beginning at the little End. ….."
From The Art of Cookery Made Plain and Easy by Hannah Glasse, 1747 edition.

LD

 

[Cosmo]

Look up Townsends on YouTube, he/they/them have a lot of 18th century food/cooking videos. They even have one about Mac & Cheese.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Thomas Jefferson was a big mac and cheese guy served at Monticello for special meals.

 

[Carbon 6]

The Chinese (who invented the noodle) make noodles out of almost anything.
Wheat, Rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, buckwheat, soybeans mung beans etc.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The Chinese (who invented the noodle) make noodles out of almost anything.
Wheat, Rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, buckwheat, soybeans mung beans etc.

Except that term "noodle" is a Western term, and it actually now appears that the Asian "noodle" and the European "pasta" developed apart from one another. The Chinese "noodle" can be dated as far back as 500 BC, and the European "noodle" can be dated to the first century. However, the earliest Chinese noodles were from spelt, which has no gluten, so could not be used to make the dry noodles that in Europe are called pasta. So they are very similar but equal inventions. The ethnic group that today are called the Chinese simply were able to dine upon the food item first, but that didn't impact the invention in Europe.

LD

 

[Carbon 6]

Except that term "noodle" is a Western term, and it actually now appears that the Asian "noodle" and the European "pasta" developed apart from one another. The Chinese "noodle" can be dated as far back as 500 BC, and the European "noodle" can be dated to the first century. However, the earliest Chinese noodles were from spelt, which has no gluten, so could not be used to make the dry noodles that in Europe are called pasta. So they are very similar but equal inventions. The ethnic group that today are called the Chinese simply were able to dine upon the food item first, but that didn't impact the invention in Europe.

LD

Not sure what point you are making, but buckwheat and soybeans are both native to China.
The oldest bowl of noodles ( 4000 years old ) was found in 2005 by Houyuan Lu of the Institute of Geology and Geophysics at Beijing's Chinese Academy of Sciences.
The Noodles were made from Millet, also indigenous to China.

Buckwheat, soybean, mung bean, rice, noodles are dried, I'm not sure about millet. I don't think gluten is a requirement, just a protein, any protein. After all there is such a thing as gluten free pasta, and the Chinese make a noodle from sweet potatoes, which are gluten free. It too I think is dried.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Loyalist Dave, the noodle recipe you gave is pretty much how we make homemade noodles. The only variable is the type of flour. Now some homemade lasagna or chicken noodle soup is sounding good even if it is a hot day.

 

[tenngun]

I not a big baking fan. And all the different types of wheat flour is a mystery to me.
This thirteenth century English recipe made its noodles resembling a short paste vs a different flour and dough then Italian pasta.
The vid I was watching for this stated even the origins of ‘Lasanga’ are unknown possibly being Greek.
Folks making it don’t seem to be popping it in to an oven till the nineteenth century.
Cheese first went on as a garnish and then very light at that.
I do think they have found a lasanga oven at fort Bridger. Analysis of the finger prints in the clay match prints on the Bridger Hawken proving Ol’Gabe himself built it.( I jest)

 

[Carbon 6]

I enjoy the food I eat too much to lower my standards. I was at one rendezvous visiting with a trader (purchasing something) at lunch time. They were a couple of real "Foodies" and though their meal wasn't anywhere near historically correct, I would have gladly paid good money for it at the finest upscale cafe. A beautiful sandwich with micro greens , Camembert cheese and fresh fruit. All that was missing was the wine.
I left drooling.
I see people eat all manner of foods at rendezvous. I'm still a sucker for fry bread.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The vid I was watching for this stated even the origins of ‘Lasanga’ are unknown possibly being Greek.

The origins of Italian pasta are Greek, and basically the large sheets of pasta are merely dough rolled into sheets for noodles, except one doesn't cut the sheets into noodles.

LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Not sure what point you are making,

Italian pasta and Chinese noodles were independently developed. Noodles were "invented" first by Chinese, and then in Europe they were invented, most likely by the Greeks...

LD

 

[Carbon 6]

When I make Lasagna for the wife and I I make it in a pyrex bread pan, The perfect size for two servings. I make the noodles by rolling the dough as thin as I can get it and cutting it the size of the pan. A half dozen layers of sauce , cheeses mushrooms etc. and some olive oil . The secret is to bake it long enough for a crust to develop on the edges. It's heaven in a pan. My ricotta mixture is a secret.

 

[Carbon 6]

Italian pasta and Chinese noodles were independently developed. Noodles were "invented" first by Chinese, and then in Europe they were invented, most likely by the Greeks...

LD

Marco Polo is often credited with introducing noodles to the west, and I think that's quite possible, but I also think that many forms of pasta or noodles developed naturally.
The Chinese have many different kinds of noodles, the Italians have many different types, but they all revolve around one or two basic doughs.

 

[tenngun]

Marco Polo is often credited with introducing noodles to the west, and I think that's quite possible, but I also think that many forms of pasta or noodles developed naturally.
The Chinese have many different kinds of noodles, the Italians have many different types, but they all revolve around one or two basic doughs.

Old story, it’s possible Marco was a made up person by Rustillo. If he really was, this is late thirteenth century. But cooking books from the early Roman Rmpire have pasta in them.
Cultures do learn from other cultures. But people’s do often create the same thing independently.
Flat breads are known from all over. Pyramids come from all over. Writing was independently invented several times. The most interesting was Inca knots.
When I was a kid we watched a movie with a wolf in it. I called it a dog and my brother was quick to correct me. I still think of just a wild dog when I see a wolf, or think wolf we I see my puppies work to establish top dog in their group.
On this forum I once called tamales a Mexican pudding. Oh the answers I got.... tamales are not puddings. However I’m darned if I can see the difference. Independent cutlers wrapped stuff in dough, held it in a container, and boiled it. Pot stickers, steak pudding, tamales, all kind of puddings to me.
A rose by any other name ????

 

[Carbon 6]

Tamale / corn pudding, that makes sense to me. The world is full of culinary variations with similar themes.

 

[Carbon 6]

Here is a video of Chinese sweet potato noodles being made. The sweet potatoes are first ground and the starch is extracted. I have a video on that too if anyone is interested.
The video is in Chinese but is self explanatory.
The sweet potato was introduced to china in 1594, it's production and consumption was encouraged. Within a hundred years china's population had doubled.

 

[Carbon 6]

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but you can even make noodles from oats.

I think you could easily make lasagna out of these, or maybe manicotti.